This was a nice project. A 62 caliber smoothy carbine. Around 420 fpe I think I recall.

I found this pic of the entire gun and edit to place it in here.





Sculpting the Mahogany stock blank, for ambidextrous grip.



I use mainly rotary pneumatic tools to carve.



Subject matter is a primative hunter ... a Woodsman. Can you find the bighorn sheep on the mountain side?



The detail. Finish baked in. It will mellow now over the next few years, and darken.



Dusty, dirty work. I enjoy being able to sit and carve though. Beats hanging over a lathe, or standing at the mill. Takes the weight off the back.

Hope you enjoyed seeing the Woodsman XLT 62 Carbine.

Gary



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2008 12:42PM by barnespneumatic.

Besides the carving, there are two amazing things we found when testing the XLT: It is so light and easy to point, it's like shooting a Crosman (until you pull the trigger!), and the POI was identical between 25 and 50 yards. I remember the first shots were almost "on" at 25 and only a couple clicks were made. Then we shot at 50 yards and the POI was exactly the same as the last shot at 25! We figured it must have been a magic combination that produced no drop...

Yes ... the 420 grain slug if I recall. It was still rising at 25 yards and falling at 50 ... for the same POI I suppose. Made it fun to pound steel targets with.

Gary

Gary,

After looking at the picture of you carving in that chair I think I have discovered athe cause for a lot of your aches and pains!

I would seriously think about getting a new chair.

Gary:

Nice stock. Looking forward to seeing the entire gun! As much as it paines me to do so , I have to agree with Lon. You need a new carving chair!

Karl

Guys,

That IS the new chair! Barely five years old now.

If I get too comfortable, I'll go to sleep. hehe.

What I really need is a massive unit with carved dragon head posts. Hummm. But ... as with any good idea, it doesn't end there. I'd need a far bigger shop to contain it, and the other needs. Jerry and Jim can attest to the fact that I have a "single file" shop. And, turn around areas are few .... and far between.

Gary

This is going on five years later now!

I HAVE MY NEW BIG SHOP!!!!!

But have not yet completed the move so I can use it daily. That's coming.

I was poking around here in the older posts - found this reference to the guys telling me that I needed a new chair! hahah. When I recently carved the Orion, I was in the new Studio, in a different chair. I enjoyed that.

Gary

Gary,
I could bring you a big chunk of stump or log and you could carve out your own seat that would fit you. Dragon's and all. There's some big walnut stumps in my Dad's woods.
I tried to download some aged pictures but haven't figured out how to downsize them yet and my daughter is to busy with test this week.
Karl you have already seen it. Dory

Dory,

If you want to share something, attach it to an e-mail to me ... I'll size and post it for ya.

Gary

So Gary,

I was wondering how much velocity it costs you to go with a carbine vs. full length in this model. Is the rest of the powerplant the same, just shorter barrel and reservoir tubes? It sure looks light and handy, though...

Hi Rotor,

I'd have to check the data. My memory recalls about a 400 fpe range.

Was a great little gun. I only had it for a few moments though. Off to our ledger customer - who's one of our readers here.

Gary

To complete the answer better ... no - the valves are built for the intention of the gun, and the hammers are tuned to produce what power the barrel can handle. No use in producing more air than the barrel can use (thus wasting it with extra muzzle wash).

Gary

Are there special slugs for smooth bores? I know you have special slugs for all airguns, but I'm not thinking that... Are smooth bore slugs something similar as shotgun slugs? Is there something (some component) that puts slugs in rotation, something that stabilizes the slug, or how in earth those smooth bores of yours could be so accurate?

I did indeed, work long and hard to develop special slugs that do fly well from smooth bores. They don't spin - no. It's their geometry that does the trick.

Thanks,

Gary

Beautiful carbine... fantastic color anodizing on the aluminum bits. If you ever do come up with a BB pistol, wrapped in an aluminum shroud, I can't help thinking not only of all the possibilities for engraving, but what you could do when it comes to anodizing the shroud parts. Just imagine nearly an entire gun, the same color as the aluminum bits on this carbine... not only a work of art, but a very shocking work of art! Not that all the stock carving here isn't shocking, given how rare I've seen any firearm carved so extensively, let alone any airguns. Nice job. I always thought mahogany was a much darker wood, but you mention it will grow darker with time... is this normal for this wood, starting out so light, and darkening over time? Or was this just an unusually light example? I do imagine the new owner will be very happy with it. I certainly would!

Also, I agree... a tree-stump carving chair would be excellent. Even if it didn't have any dragons on it.

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You know, you could probably get the slugs to spin just a bit with even as slight an interior surface finish as a spiral honing. I read a report some time back that claimed that just some steel wool on a dowel could impart enough surface finish to the interior of a shotgun barrel to get the big "pumpkin" slugs to rotating slowly in flight. I think that they were trying to get more accuracy back in the era prior to rifled "slug" barrels in shotguns, as I recall it was from the 60's or so.

Perhaps they were trying to get the benefits of rifling in a jurisdiction that prohibited anything except smoothbores for deer hunting, that was pretty common back in the midwest and east coast some time ago. Instead of "microgroove" rifling, it'd have to be something like "nanogroove" or "picogroove", since it was basically just a pattern of scratches inside the barrel. I'd assume that at some point you have to stop call it a "surface finish" and just call it shallow rifling, though.; )

Rotorhead...

I do believe I've heard of slug guns that have a bit of rifling just at the muzzle, or something to that effect. I know a lot of different methods have been used to impart spin to bullets/slugs, but it's been some time since I've read up on the subject.

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Rotorhead,

I've heard about the shotgun report on "rifling" but I've never been able to find it, do you know where it can be found? I'm not planning on doing anything to the bore of my Woodsman though. Last time out it was hitting those critters at 70 yards just fine!

I read about that paticular report in a gun magazine, so it's really third-hand information. I have little doubt that the original report is out there...somewhere.... As I recall, the article that I was reading was about shotguns (no surprise there) with very long barrels, like five or six feet long. They were used by a particular gun club or group of shooters to keep the noise down. Apparently when you have a sixty-inch barrel on your 12 gauge it's almost like having a silencer, but without the legal hassles and technical problems. Of course, it's a bit unwieldy to tote around a firearm that's as long as you are tall, so there are some drawbacks. I'd assume that although your swing and followthrough would be very, very smooth, it wouldn't exactly be the most "lively" gun out there. ; )

And yes. I've heard about the "paradox" barrels, which are actually muzzle chokes with very shallow rifling. I believe that they were a quasi-legal way to get around the old restrictions on rifling in shotgun barrels.

Yes - saw that too. Quite a look.

You want to change your order again ... don't you Rotor ...

haha.

Gary

Wow, a 60" barrel that would be interesting. Just kidding Gary. Dory

They use those sleeved shotgun barrels out west in the flyways for crow hunting. The shotguns have a sleeve permantly fixed on a barrel that does indeed make them much quieter. They set up along a known flyway using camo netting, decoys, audio tapes. Crows are smart animals and will catch on quick, lowering the report keeps them shooting longer.
I was thinking that a paradox barrel is fully rifled from the throat to the muzzle with the twist rate becoming faster as it progesses down the bore.
Rifled chokes for shotguns have been around for a good while, not long after screw in chokes were introduced. They work very well for a Foster type slug, but cannot impart enough twist to stabilize long pointed bullets. At higher velocities the projectile strips/or skids along the rifling, and does not help rotate the bullet..

Nope Gary, not hardly.

Once I saw that original Woodsman it was all over for me. Of course, I'm still thinking along the lines of bronze/stainless given where I live but lets not get your blood pressure up THAT far just yet. ; )

Hoover...

I think the fully rifled barrels you're thinking about are called "gain-twist", and not Paradox. In fact, I think the Paradox thing was a brand name from some time ago for a rifled choke insert that screwed into regular shotguns....but then, I could be wrong. Both my wife and my five year old delight in informing me that I'm wrong ALL the time. : )

Gain twist rifling has been around almost as long as rifling itself has, I've got a couple of firearms books around mentioning it's use in everything from blackpowder muzzleloaders to naval cannon. I know for a fact that the 30mm chain gun on the Apache helicopter uses gain twist rifling. Of course these days it's put there by ultra-precise Electrical Discharge Machining techniques, a far cry from the days of wooden ships and bronze cannons.

Rotorhead, it was not my intention to say that you were wrong, only what I had thought a paradox barrel was. In fact after I read this thread the first time I did a search on google. This is what I found:
The word "Paradox" has been used by Holland & Holland of London since 1886 to describe large bore guns with the last few inches of the barrel rifled with a special "ratchet" style of rifling. Holland & Holland purchased the rights to the Paradox gun in 1885 from Col George Vincent Fosbery VC,[1] who also invented the Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver. They chose the name "Paradox" because shotguns are defined by their smoothbore barrels, and a "rifled shotgun" was something of a contradiction in terms, i.e. a paradox. Holland & Holland's Paradox and Nitro-Paradox guns are not slug guns as they fire standard shotgun shells and cartridges with special Paradox bullets fully interchangeably. Over the years Holland & Holland manufactured Paradox guns in 20, 16, 12, 10, and 8 bore sizes. Today they continue to manufacture Paradox guns of 12 bore in the famous 'Royal' sidelock ejector as well as in their newer round action side-by-side gun.

Amd some guy named .... Barnes .... uses gain twist barrels in some of his projects. Note the 25 Rendezvous Magnum.

Who knew?

Gary

Gary,

You mentioned a while back that you reduced the twist rate, to check out the ballistics. Any follow comments on that?

I'm always surprised at how many different twist rates work very well. When you read articles, they lead you to believe that you cannot shoot a ball from a fast barrel. You can.

There are also times though, where you would not think a barrel would tell a difference, because the twist is not very much different. Yet, a particular slug will tell. Won't fly from a given twist, yet will from a twist rate hardly (but marginally) faster.

You need range time to tell.

Gary

barnespneumatic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm always surprised at how many different twist
> rates work very well. When you read articles,
> they lead you to believe that you cannot shoot a
> ball from a fast barrel. You can.
>
> There are also times though, where you would not
> think a barrel would tell a difference, because
> the twist is not very much different. Yet, a
> particular slug will tell. Won't fly from a given
> twist, yet will from a twist rate hardly (but
> marginally) faster.

Yes, articles often put forward strong generalizations (beliefs) which are not necessarily tested. Someone who writes an article quotes somebody who said something based on special circumstance which is unknown to writer, and so on... And soon there is sort of false generalization made by author of some article. Well, I don't know how that ball thing belief has been born or came to existence, but I have seen similar cases. Well, but you know, same thing could happen if I tell this twist rate thing and ball flight to new audience, and make generalization of different sort without testing it myself, I could very well put forward similar untrue statement, although it is based on 100 % true instances...

By the way, one thing relating to topic just came to my mind. It is often said that smoothbores are very inaccurate -- haha, I could say (or I must say ) that I believed that it is so just a little while ago (until I saw your tests with Woodsman class of airguns). And if you read several articles about muzzles and rifling you will almost surely find that satetment somewhare (that smoothbores are inaccurate). It was based on some instances, and some people made a generalization... and now it is almost everyone's accepted belief. Well, I'm planning to test a smooth bore to my .45 cal airgun in the next summer, and then will see, if it is enough large bore to make some slugs stable... Also remembering that slugs must be special (maybe have to make some slug applications also).

Sepeteus,

With the exception of some readers here, and friends ....

Yes ... I know it's a fact that 100% of the people believe smooth bore guns cannot be accurate. And after me taking years to develop slugs which will fly accurately from smooth bore guns ... people (readers who have not shot my smooth bores) still 100% believe that smooth bores are inaccurate. Even after years of showing amazing accuracy with smoothies, and with people shooting them at public events and marveling at the accuracy, there's still the overpowering desire of readers to help me figure how to spin the slugs (which I developed to not require spinning) ... and to help me rifle the barrels that don't need to be rifled.

The theory is, if I can produce amazing accuracy with my smooth bore guns and slugs, IMAGINE if I'd stop being stubborn , and properly rifle them!! haah.

It's a fact that people who devote countless hours to making possible, what everybody knows to be impossible, then face near total disbelief .... because ... well .... everybody knows it's impossible!

The Justice and Woodsman series drive people nuts. The ones that have them (that use them) are simply amazed at what they do. When Jerry and I have his Woodsman out to shoot steel targets ... out to 70 yards or so, he can nail just as many steel groundhogs as me (with a rifle). AHH!!! ... out to 70 yards!!! You said out to 70 yards!!! Right ... that's beyond the design spec. of the 400 fpe Woodsman. (Which shoots about 450 fpe) ... since it's an AIR gun tossing astounding heavy slugs of 575 grains. And, you can pound alot of steel much farther out, with just the occasional miss. But then, when I pound steel out beyond 70 yards with a Barnes rifle ... I occasionally miss anyway. Now, the Chief Justice (with Kent at the trigger) will pound 90 yard steel, all day long. That's intended as a 50 yard brush gun. Shooting a 920 grain slug! It was never intended as a long range target rifle. It just worked out to nearly double it's projected accuracy range. Dumbfounding to anyone who watches it shoot.

So; many, many things can be done. When I started making airguns ... a Phil. Islands air shotgun called the Farco, was THE baddest beast on the block. At just about 100 fpe ... nobody could believe the power this roughly 50 cal. airgun made. Of course, you could barely hit a hupcap at 40 yards with it, but ... it was state of the art.

With dedicated work to design and testing ... barriers are pushed back!



Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2009 04:38PM by barnespneumatic.

Can you imagine hunting with an 8 bore shotgun? The nimrods of yore must have had shoulders of steel. ; )

I'm surprised that Holland and Holland is still in business, given the rabidly anti-gun climate in Britain. Up here in AK you still see the .375 H&H around quite a bit, it's one of the more popular cartridges for brown bear.

Actually, I've seen plenty of accurate smoothbores that get shot quite a lot at very long range, with impressive results.

Here's one that'll hit targets ~4km out, with a muzzle velocity of 5700 ft./sec [en.wikipedia.org]

Of course, since the barrel alone weighs 2970 lbs, it's not quite as handy as the Woodsman series.

Another thread on a specific model brought forward.

Gary

Gary....

reread the first post in this thread...... and realized you are hand shaping the stock.

given how smooth and symmetrical the shape was, I assumed you were milling or machining it first to get it roughed out.....

Awesome handwork.