Hey there, great forum!!!
I live up in Canada and have been into airguns for about 5 years now.
I am 35 years old and have a wonderful wife and 2 beautiful little girls.
I served 7 years in the Army and did numerous tours across the globe.
I am now a self employed handyman that keeps me very busy.

Even though I have powderburners, I am way more interested in the air rifles for some reason.
I think it is the history of them and the "Wow" factor that goes with it.
So, without further ado.....here is my little collection. (by no way as good as the collections I've seen here)

Farco modified .50 that I have tuned up to 700fps with hpa
Crosman 1100 trapmaster tuned to 540fps
crosman 150 in .32 cal at around 500fps
Crosman 160 .22
Crosman 622 .22 repeater
1 Pedersoli .50 flintlock Country Hunter
1 .22 1954 Cooey
1 Career 707 9mm Ultra

I have a question about the Career. What are some modifications that I can do to this gun to make it more accurate, more powerful and make it stop eating O-rings on the bolt probe.
My first guess is to shave off the rifling on the breech area so as to stop shaving off the O-rings, am I right about that?

Chris

Hello Chris!

First ... Welcome to the Rendezvous. I'm very pleased to welcome you. I hope you will find it a comfortable place to enjoy your sport.

Thank you, sincerely, for your service. I really admire the people who will answer the call of duty and protect their fellow countrymen. God Bless.

Regarding your Ultra. From my memory (I've never actually worked on one, but have had some experience with folks who have). If you've been trying different slugs, it's a known fact that slugs that are "too tight" or "too heavy" will dramatically raise the breech pressure, and strip the O rings off the bolt when it fires.

If you haven't had this discussion, here's a thumbnail version: When any PCP firing valve opens, it starts to fill the transfer port, and then the breech behind the slug. The slug is waiting there, pushed up against the rifling. The design of the slug, it's diameter, and weight ... will all effect how much pressure is required behind it, before the lead will deform and let the slug slip into the bore.

Think about it: The small 60 grain 9mm pellets that were made for that gun, are a nice product. I've seen different versions. The later ones (still probably 6+ years ago) were real nice. But - they just have a thin head band and a skirt to be engraved by the rifling. That offers little resistance against the rifling, and will quickly move down the bore. I'll bet the pellet is moving by the time there's a thousand PSI behind it.

Now, envision what most people offer for alternate slugs for the gun. They will offer the same diameter ... but usually with a long slab sided slug. There's about 20 times as much lead to engrave, and there's usually no grooves in the side of the slug to relieve the pressure, and give the lead a place to displace into. Therefore; in order for that slug to move down the bore, it has to overcome a tremendous resistance to engraving that slug. That allows the breech pressure to raise waaaaay much high that before ... trying to move the slug ... and this shears the O rings off the bolt.

Now, that's a sort of shuttle bolt design if I recall. It's not made really tight and precise, or it would bind up. The tolerance is what allows the O rings to extrude under pressure, and fail.

That's my guess. Hope it helps.

The cure ... 1). shoot the company pellet. 2). Shoot the slugs at a smaller diameter. Slugs that are engraved over a long side, don't need as deeply engraved grooves to guide them. 3). Get a slug that has deep grooves on the side, and thin bands to be engraved. They offer less resistance. 4). Don't try to shoot really heavy slugs. They offer resistance thru their weight alone.



Gary

Welcome aboard Chris! I imagine someone here will have an idea about that 707...

I bought 4 tins of EunJin 9mm pellets that are 77.8grain.Gary Barnes,

On another note..

The amazing guy that makes those freakin awesome bigbore air rifles??
Is that the same one?
I see your product online here and there and just drool at the sight of them.

I can only dream of ever owning one of your master works!!

You are an icon to airgunners everywhere. And you take the time to talk to the little people like me truly help out. You are like the Guru of this sport.
When I first started looking into bigbore airguns, I thought that Denis Quackenbush was the best out there, but then I saw your work and I was sadly mistaken!
Don't get me wrong, Mr.Quackenbush makes some nice guns, but your rifles are working pieces of art in my opinion!

I just love your painstaking attention to detail. Being a perfectionist myself, I can only imagine how long each piece must take. I truly tip my hat to you sir.



Thanks Mr. Barnes.

Chris

Thank you Chris.



Gary

I'd print that one out and stick it on the fridge if I were you, Gary.

Welcome Chris. Yes, you will find Gary somehow takes time out to talk with us mere mortals. You'll find Jerry, Kent, Neil, and a few others to be quite knowledgeable as well. Enjoy your time here.

-- Jim

Ok, here's something else.

I want to get away from having to pump all the time, so I want to get a scuba tank.

What do I need to have a setup ready for the career.

I know it needs to be filled to 3000psi and that's all I know.

What pieces of equipment do I need?

I want to be able to go to the dive shop and know what I'm looking for.(sizes of adapters, whether or not I need a regulator for the tank, that kind of stuff...)

Chris

Chris,
You need just a scuba tank, FILL STATION and appropriate adaptor.
I have a guess about your Career's O-rings eating.

Regards,
Alex



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2010 05:08AM by alex.

Chris,
I've really nothing to add to
Tofazfou's suggestions.

So how's that for some expert advice?

Ced,
You might have to explain where that shim goes and maybe some dimensions.

This post brings up another little off topic; every now and then, I get asked about 9mm slugs. Not often enough to indicate any profitable demand but enough to make me re-visit why we don't do 9mm. The 9mm seems to have a larger variance in what darn size it is than any other caliber. I've seen everything from .356 to .360 labled as a 9mm with every .001 in-between included. I'm certain there is no way we could ever gues at a mold and size and ever get more than one gun right...and that guy would be having good luck with Eun Jins!

Jerry,

Don't forget the 38's, the 38 Specials, and the 357 Magnums what are ALL the same size too. All listed at .358" hahah. Love the thirty FIVE numbers being thirty EIGHT caliber. Guess they had a bunch of extra 8's and few 5's in the type drawer ...

I'd suspect somewhere in there, as all molds do ... there would be a cheap mold that drops @ .360 and has thin drive rings.

Gary

lol

Jerry, well, on the flip side of the 9mm issue is...you are really only dealing with 1 gun that is in 9mm. Well, 2 guns but they are by the same manufacturer and there 2 versions. The ULTRA (repeater) and the single shot 201-202. Which they use the same barrel unless within the last couple years they changed that too.

Cant think of any other 9mm out there....I THINK.

SO now making 9mm bullets should be pretty easy cause theres only one manf. of 9mm airguns..lol

My 2 choices on 9mm size bullets are .358 and .360. Especially .358. I heard of a bunch of guys with the ULTRA and 201 shooting SPEER .358"/148 gr DEWC with GREAT SUCCESS. That is the one bullet i never tried in my gun.

Chris,

1st off.......WELCOME to the forum

2ndly, you have a pretty nice collection of TOYS...LOL

Now, there is ONE major problem with all 707 9mm ultras. As you have stated, the oring gets shreaded in less than 100 shots. SOLUTION: Shim up the bottom of the bolt probe using something as THIN AS AN ALUMINUM cola can. Has to be metal and not platic. ALUMINUM STRIPS WORK VERY WELL but it has to be very thin just like a cola can. The bolts on those guns are pointing at a downward angle so everytime you close the bolt, the O-RING (widest O.D. on bolt probe) scrapes the sharp edge of the breech. And the HPA blast only weakens it everytime you shoot. Also, since you have to replace that oring, you might as well buy a 90-durometer oring which is WAAAY more durable than the standard black orings.

3rdly, the Eun Jins suck in that gun period. Especially on high power. The bore on that gun is closest to .360" cal. So the best ammo for that gun will be in the .358-360" diameter. It shoots Roundballs from [www.ballisticproducts.com] best. Remember, ammo should be closest to about .360"

4thly, all of the above will greatly help with accuracy cause now you will be shooting ammo closest to the true bore diameter and your bolt probe will now completely seal you gun therefor not wasting any air or have a BLOWBY problem. The last thing to do to help with accuracy is to back off the barrels threaded endcap. When it is TIGHT against the barrel band which also hold on to the 2 airtubes, it pushes on the barrel when you fill the gun up. Back off the threaded cap about 1/8 of a turn and BLUE LOCKTITE it in place. This should help to let you barrel NOT move as the tubes are being filled and deflated as you shoot air out of the gun. That barrel band on that gun sucks.

HOPE ALL THIS HELPS.

So ... Cedric ...

Before someone else buys 4 tins of pellets based upon my recommendation .... ... fill me in. What size are the ball you are recommending? I see the .360" measurement a couple of times. Are you saying the guns shoots slugs and ball at the same size? Since ball are only engraved at the waist, and a very narrow belt at that, I've never seem ball shoot well at the same size as slugs.

And, what's the problem with the pellets? What size are they? I'm not arguing ... but I've never heard that, and would wonder why. Can't see a manufacturer endlessly offering something to make their gun look bad. What's the deal?

Last, have you heard, or not ... of the heavy and tight aftermarket bullet/slugs causing breech O ring failure? If you can "shim a bolt", then you've definitely got the sloppy action I depicted. If the bolt is that sloppy, then you definitely have a void for elevated pressure to extrude an O ring. Inquiring minds want to know ... hahah.

Gary

OK ... the link says .360" on the buckshot ball.

I wonder if they are like Hornady buckshot ... and harder lead. That would help them grab the rifling and not strip. Still can't see a slug riding as deep in the rifling as a ball ... unless it were the little pellet head and skirt rings.

I would suspect the ball and pellet weigh about the same.

Gary

Ok.....
I think you've lost me.

Alex, the diagram that you made is not like the Career 707 9mm Ultra.
It is a sidefed stick clip of 5 pellets, not a rotary clip.

The head of the pellet is .352 and the skirt is .360
The bore of the rifle is .360

I am using a manual caliper, so my numbers won't be dead on of course.

As far as the scuba tank is concerned. I was told today that scuba tanks only come in 3000psi and that I cannot get a 4500psi tank.
Also, wont I need something like a regulator on a paintball tank to ensure that the output does not exceed 3000psi? I don't want to trust the guage on the rifle, it was made in Korea!!!! I mean, C'mon!!!!

Could you guys please spell out what I need to get like your talking to rainman. I found a carbon fiber tank today for $225 it was a 68ci 4500psi pure energy tank, but the guy told me that there is no way to run it without a regulator and that the highest that there is available is 1200psi output.

I'm lost.

Chris

Chris
I am sorry,
I've mistaken, it was Wierauch on my 3D model.
You don't need any regulators, just paste in Google PCP FILL STATION

Alex

GB, I know you are only curious. Thats exactly how i took it. So hear we go.

1st, There are a couple of KOREAN airguns that are very hard to find slugs for. 1 being the 909 as its bore is around .456 and most folks who own them..REALLY don't know the barrels true bore diameter. Even light .457 ammo (200 gr) is marginally accurate in that gun. 2 being the Career ULTRA 9mm. When i owned mine, i did tons of research and like the 909 no one could give me a definitive answer as to what the bore diameter was. So i slugged mine and the closest i came to an actual size was .359. I slugged it again and it came out to what roughly looked like .3585 on my calipers. Now, this is when i was a little young in the game of airguns. So my next idea was to find something closest as i could get it to .360". And when i searched the WEB, Hornady's RB's and 000 buckshot came up in the search engine. And just so happens that when i clicked on the 000 buck link....Ballistic Products came up. You got roughly 800 triple ought buckshot for 17.95 so i ordered them and not the hornadys. Instantly my groups shrank to literally 1" groups at 50 yrds.

2nd, so now i take the gun to TIM at MAC1 cause all of a sudden after my first 76 shots, i started getting blow by in my face and hands. Tim basically asked me to hang around while he worked on my gun and i did. Needless to say, when he was totally done with it, he began to generously show me the guns week points and why the gun was blowing air back into my face. The blow by was caused obviously by the oring or LACK THEREOF and the reasoning as he visually showed me was that without that shim UNDER the ENTIRE bolt probe, you could slightly lift the bolt probe up and down. He said that that had happened on SOOOO many 909 ultras and was a very common problem. He also replaced the torn oring with a white 90 durameter one. Then he showed me the trick with gluing down the threaded muzzle endcap protector. He did some other stuff too but its been a while. But those are the main accuracy issues with that gun.

3rd. AMMO: After i referred a few folks to try 000 buckshot from Ballistic Products in their 9mm's, replies came back that 000 buckshot sucked. I said, "WHAAAT! Buckshot sucks in you guys' 9mm's. What did you guys buy?" They replied back and said HORNADY. I laughed my butt off cause if you look at HORNADY'S 2 TYPES of 000 BUCKSHOT one size is .350" and the other size labeled as 36 caliber is actually .375". Neither being close enough to .360 to be very accurate. I told them to follow my original recommendation of the BALLISTIC PRODUCTS 000 buckshot as its actually .360", unlike the Hornady's. I don't understand Hornady's rational for their sizes for 000 buckshot. Check out www.MIDWAYUSA.com and look at their muzzle loading round balls and you can see Hornady has 2 different sizes for 36 caliber, neither which are even close to .360......lol. Trust me GB, there are a lot of people who bought that Hornady Round ball to shoot in their 9mm's and they weren't happy......lol

Now as for the EUN JINS, i don't quite know the deal with them. I never measured the OD of the skirt and head so i really don't know its true diameter as compared to the Ultra's bore. But, they are by far, the stubbiest lil pellet i have ever seen. I think they are like the same length as the .25 cal EJ's if i remember correctly. And in my opinion that was a MAJOR part of there problem. They are too dog on STUBBY and the length probably does not go well with the rate of twist and speed. On low power, they were only OK in the accuracy DEPT but on high power, when i shot them i could see them CURVE downrange like a boomerang. And i'm not even exaggerating, they curved like a boomerang. It was pretty cool but frustrating to look at them curve in mid flight downrange. I honestly don't know of anyone who has shot the Eun Jins say they liked them. All guns will vary but i doubt that they vary that much. I had more reports than just mine that said the EJ's were horrible. Mine pushed the EJs at over 1000 fps on high power. I've asked folks that might have thought the EJ's were accurate how far are they accurate out too and a couple had said like 20-25 yrds. To me, that aint accuracy. To me, when you talk about an accurate pellet, you are talking about something in an air gun that is accurate up close and out far. Like Kodiaks or JSB's...etc..etc. If you are plinking then that's fine but i don't wanna be out hunting and hope everything i shoot at is within that magical 25 yard range...lol.

Now, what i have noticed in the past years with RB's and EJ's are that, RB's appear to be MORE ACCURATE in big bores (.308 and up) and not so much in small bores (.25 cal on down). And accuracy is one of those words that seem to vary from person to person. But most say that they have had decent results with small bore RB out to like 30 yrds but, they also said that they might as well use their MAINSTAY pellet which is accurate up close and downrange. Its seems to be the opposite for EJ's. They really suck in 9mm but are pretty good in everything from 25 cal on down to .177. And yes, a TRUE 000 buck shot RB will weigh right in at 70 grains. The current production EJ's are 77 grains and PYRAMID AIR used to sell them in like a 66 grain version. AAARRRRGGGGH.......no thank you on those....lol.


OMG.......now i'm just ramblin on



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2010 05:30AM by Tofazfou.

Gary,

Another issue that i have found with blown o-rings (not on the 9mm ultra) is on occasion a bolt when machined to accept an o-ring is not machined properly and the forward face of the bolt probe that locks in the o-ring, is machined to a much shorter overall height than the rear face of the o-ring groove. So when the gun fires, it pushes air against the exposed o-ring and blows it back out of the gun between the breech walls and bolt probe.

In other words, sometimes, manufacturers don't machine the o-ring groove on a bolt probe properly. Me and Paul found that out the hard way on his 2000 dollars DAYSTATE. He has since then Machined a NEW bolt probe with higher faced oring groove lips and the problem has been resolved.

Its ashamed stuff like this happens.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2010 05:38AM by Tofazfou.

Hi Cedric,

An interesting trip down commercial lane. I see you've managed to become "street wise" to the area.

Yeah ... there's quite a difference between .350" and .375" .... but then, none of these manufacturers are selling "buckshot" to be prime ammo.

The early Hornady buckshot (10 years ago) ... was a mess. Just not spherical. All the sudden, when I reordered, it had become nearly perfectly spherical. I found it worked amazing in my 25's and 32's. When we had pistol shoots in Kentucky ... we'd strand - offhand, and pound 60-75 yard targets with buckshot ball - from long pistols like the Victory Class.

I even called Hornady to see what they'd done. I talked to a couple of engineers. They said ... "Huh?" They didn't know. I suspose they changed equipment and didn't even realize the improvement. Might be another case of new equipment just being better than it needs to be. You don't need perfect buckshot in a shot shell. But ... when making the machine on state of the art machines ... why make a sloppy one? All of the sudden, the ball were great.

Now .. if you've slugged the bore at .3585/.359" and the buckshot are hard ... I can see that the .360" will "bore scrounge" and work.

As for bad machining. That's just ... bad machining. And ... making "interchangable parts" to a lower denominator.

Thanks for the info.

Gary

So, what is the namebrand and size of ammo I should be using so that I can order some.
Where can I get it and how much will it cost me.

I don't want to be stuck at the 25 yard range when it boasts 100yards, thats why I bought it.

Also.

I just purchased an 80cu ft Scuba tank that is still good hydro until 2014 and has a K/valve. Is this a good start. I got it for $150, is this a good price?
What else do I need, where can I get it and how much?

All these questions, but it seems to be the place to set me straight with all the geniuses and all......hee hee.

I'm not dumb, I just look that way!
No, really, It's just that I do know and respect the power and potential dangers of HPA applications and want to get advice from people who really know their stuff.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Chris

You can try some CAST .358 bullets from here:
[www.westernbullet.com]
I would try some of the 125 gr FN for now. Its only like 10 bucks for 100 bullets which is VERY FAIR. YOUR GUN CAN AND WILL SHOOT THESE BULLETS. Adjust your magazine shuttle as far out as it can go and you should be able to reliably feed a multitude of bullets. I used to shoot some 115 grain and some 125 gr and some 100 grain bullets in mine. Did you get a manual with your 9mm ultra?

You can order the RB's from the website that i listed above. The Round balls should BE 360" and will prove to be accurate and feed the most reliably. I had no problem at all making 80 yrd offhand head shots on Jack Rabbit with my ULTRA and Round balls.

You can also try some of this guys bullets. I hear they are good:
[www.mrhollowpoint.com]
Also from hear:
[www.adventuresinairguns.com]

You can also try a box of SPEERS .358"/148 gr DEWC bullets. I hear those were pretty accurate and accurate out far.

Or for good deals and SOFT cast bullets in shapes you might prefer, you can always GOOGLE soft cast bullet makers. Or something to that effect to find different sources of bullets. Thats what i did. But unfortunantly the guy who i just loved, stopped making bullet and went out of business. So it was simply time for me to sell me 9mm. Now EVERYBODY makes bullets for that gun. Wish i had mine back. REMEMBER.....358 or .360" ammo. See what works best in your gun and stick with em.

MAN, DO YOU HAVE A LOT OF SHOOTING TO DO....LOL. Much fun ahead for you.......have fun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2010 06:03PM by Tofazfou.

One other thing, how do I shim the bolt probe?
Do I have to discharge the gun prior to opening it up? Are the screws that hold the valve part of the casing?

Do I just glue on a strip of can aluminum to the underside of the bolt probe or do I wrap a piece all around it?

I know, again with the questions, but you can never be too sure!!

I got the top part of the scuba setup at a local paintball shop for $50, it is the thing that screws onto the k-valve and has a pressure guage and the fitting on it for the 1/8 hose.

So not bad, $200 for the complete scuba refill center and its a big 80cu ft tank at that!!

Chris

Hi Chris,

The aluminum 80 cubic foot with K valve is the basic unit. It will work. You will find that you pretty quickly use the air though, because the tank only takes 3,000 psi, and your gun most likely wants that or nearly that. You can fill your gun until your tank gets down to where the gun is not effective anymore ... then you have to go have it "topped off". The reason for using tanks of larger capacity or higher pressure is so you have more vol. to draw from.

You open the fill valve slow. You can watch the needle on the gauge, and see the gun fill. Don't just crack it open fast - and don't turn it open more than just a 1/4 turn, etc. So you can shut it off quickly. After you shut the K valve, then you use the little bleeder wheel, to vent the fill hose. Then disconnect. Take your time and be careful.

The next type of common tank is an aluminum 100 cubic foot tank with a DIN valve. It fills to 3,300 psi and has more reserve. There are also steel tanks that fill to about 3,500 I think. What you want to move it is the 88 cubic foot Carbon fiber tank. The 4,500 psi and 88 cubic feet last a while.

Gary

I checked out ballistic products and they won't ship to Canada unless I put an order minimum of $250!!!
WOW!! I guess they aren't hurting for business!
Anywhere in Canada that I can get this product; ?

Super Buck Lead Buckshot #000 8lb .360"
Item BK30 Price : $39.69

I want to try it for sure. Anyone want to get it and send it to me? I can use Paypal or EMT

???

Anyone???

Please....

Chris

I just got a response from someone here in Canada and boy oh boy the balls on this guy!!

He sells ammunition and such from Canada and he is willing to sell me 1 8lb bottle of 000 buckshot from ballistic products for $50+tax+shipping!!!

That's completely retarded!! Why is buckshot so expensive??

I can't find anywhere here to buy this product!!

Chris

Well, Chris, lead (buckshot) and or bullets have pretty much gone up since the war. Thats why PRIMERS, BULLETS, REloading supplies, loaded ammo, brass, lead...etc etc has gone up.

Like i said, when i bought my 000 buckshot from them it was only 17-95 a bottle. And thats 8 lbs of buckshot which was a steal. 800+ shots lasted me forever. HECK, i bought 2 bottles and have to give one aways cause i never got to use most of it.

Now, as far as shipping to CANADA goes, you are gonna have to do some research. As i live here in the states, i simply don't know who does or doesnt ship out of country. You gotta use the web search engine.

There are other websites you can look into that might sell buckshot.

Here is one:
[www.trackofthewolf.com]

Also Chris,

No, don't wrap the bolt probe with the aluminum shim.

In the bolt probe tray its kinda U shaped. Once you take apart the top end of the gun and get to the probe, you just wanna trim a piece of shim to fit UNDER the bolt probe. You are in essence just adding filler space to the probe trough so the probe rides perfectly parallel to the receiver. Once you put the shim into the trough, you might have SHAPE it to fit in the trough perfectly. Make the shim U shaped like the trough so the bolt rides along it smoothly.

And yes, I ALWAYS EMPTY MY GUN before i do any work on it. It simply is the safest way to work on an air gun. I would hate for you to take a screw loose or something by accident and all that HPA comes blasting out of that gun while your working on it.

Now, if i were you, b4 i worked on that gun, i would contact TIM at MAC1 airguns and talk to him. Its simply the best way. Ask him for any advise he can give you. He is usually pretty helpful. Especially since you live in CANADA.

My Ultra is the one gun i never took pics of when it was apart. So sorry i don't have any to show you.

ALso, have you contacted some of the other guys i mentioned above about AMMO. Since the RB's seem hard for you to get, Robert Vogel or Randy Mitchell might or probably will ship bullets to you.

DOn't know your financial situation but, I would look into casting your own bullets. Its relatively cheap to get started and pretty fun to boot. Once you buy all the equipment to melt the lead and the molds that you like. You simply just keep buying PURE LEAD. EBAY has some good deals on LEAD and the Casting Equipment.

Also with casting, you can choose what bullet shapes you like and the weights that you prefer to shoot.

Uh-oh Jerry ..... .... I sense a disturbance in "The Force". ...... heheheh

I sure hope you don't go postal ..... again ....

Or did you mean that you just took some pellets to the post office to send .... I forget ....

Thanks for the info guys!!!

I will defenitely contact Tim.

Who is Robert Vogel or Randy Mitchell??

OH NOW GB.....,.STOP IT...LOL

Jerry said that he did not cast 9mm as of yet. At least that is what i thought he said up above. So i'm just trying to get the man some ammo quickly cause i know he is anxious to shot his gun.

And yes CHRIS, you could simply ask Jerry to make you some bullets as he makes a GREAT PRODUCT (lol..i'm such a K.A.) Thanx GB.

But no Chris, seriously, I gave you some AIRGUN related Links to those guys. There are a TON of airgun related websites that have good info on them. But this is one place pertaining to all airguns that you won't have any drama on. Believe me..LOL. Well, except when it comes to dealing with Mr. Gary Barnes. And yes Chris, he MAKES me call him MR. GB.

I posted links above about those 2 guys. One Makes Bullets and the other guy sells all types of airguns and has a website on airguns.

WEBSITE on airguns!

"Awwllll ... worse it gets ... yes? No? Yes? Disturbs the force it does ... does it not? Yes? No? Awlllllll"

I think Jerry said he had been saving, and was going to cash in his kid's college fund to get one of those $18 Lee molds in .358" However; I guess it's all for nothing now ....







Gary

Me thinks ye all been handlin da lead fer wey tooooo long!!!! Mighta got inta yer bloodstreem er sumtin!!

So am I to order a Lee mold in .358 or .360, what would be better?
If I understand correctly, the roundballs are much more accurate that the conical are and stay away from Hornady.

Can I get a mold from Jerry? Or even have him send me some roundballs and maybe some conical for testing them out? Not for free of course.

God I have had this gun for what, a week? and I still haven't shot it!!! I know you guys must know how I'm feeling!!!

The closest thing that I can get around here is .350, .355, and then jumps to .375.
Maybe I should just get a big bag of jelly beans and jam them in the bore to shoot!!

Chris

Hi Chris,

I know it sounds complex.

I'll get beat up for trying (cause I don't have a gun like yours), however; it's an airgun. I know a few things about shooting. Here's some base concepts again, and you can decide what to do with them.

When you can get the .360 buckshot, do that. Cedric knows they work well. No question. He also said that he "slugged the bore" of his gun. That means that he drove soft lead (an oversized bullet) down the bore, and thus took a copy of the rifling. He said that "slugged" at about .358-.3585" That means that's the bottom of the rifling grooves (if the lead he used went all the way to the bottom).

Now ... you do NOT have to have your slug riding all the way to the bottom of the grooves. That's called "scrounging the bore". It can work ... but it makes more resistance than needed. You need enough to make the slug "track" in the rifling. Don't worry that there's a thousandths between the slug and the bottom. It doesn't have time to leak before the bullet is gone. Not enough to worry about anyway.

If I were you, I'd buy a cheap Lee mold. Get a pistol mold (cause they are lighter weight slugs). Get something around 100-120 grains. I'd get .357" or .358". Either try casting, or get Jerry to use it for you. All the shipping is the issue. And, across the border too. Casting isn't a big mystery. Lots of people do it. ask around. You might also just be able to buy a box of soft lead pistol bullets. Try something. If it doesn't work, no biggie.

My origonal post was trying to explain that when these guns came out, some were "swagging" lead bullet for them, at bore size. Swagging is taking lead and squeezing it into a die with a big sausage press. It swagged slug is them pressed out of the mold. Think of it ... if you are going to squeeze it into something, and them squeeze it out to release it ... then the mold can't have any undercuts. Otherwise, you'd just lock it inside the mold. So - no grooves on the sides of the slugs. Just long smooth sides. Sides that have to be cut all the way along. Lost of back pressure. Losts of back pressure, with a sloppy bolt fit .... blown O rings.

Shoot something that's loose enough to function without too much breech pressure ... tight enough to track well for accuracy. Field testing will tall you that. Casting gives you the most option. Slugs are almost always more accurate at distance than ball. It just so happens that the .360 ball is a good match for your barrel. It's still not going to go out to 150 yards like a slug will. Like the "correct" slug will. That you learn in the field.

Don't bother with the Saeco, Lyman molds now. You don't need expensive stuff to try out concepts.

Good luck. And, if your gun is new. Just shoot it for awhile before you tear it down and alter it.

Best,
Gary

In case you want it. Of if Jerry does. Here's the skinny on the Lee mold:

Lee has a pistol bullet mold that looks good. It's for a 125 grain, which I suspect is a decent match for you. A two cavity mold it only $18.99 including the handles for it. That's absurd. Other manufacturers charge $30 or more for the handles alone!

The two cavity mold is #145-006

It's in .358"

It's at www.midwayusa.com .... or 1-800-243-3220

Hope it helps.

Gary

They also have a roundball mold in .360" It's $14.99 handles included again ... and is #128-396 Pages 424 and 425 or catalog #30

Btw,

I did order from trackofthewolf.

I got roundball in .360 and .500(for the Farco)

Now on the site it had a list of roundball sizes and I clicked on the .360, so I hope that it means the actual diameter is .360 and not .358 or something.

Chris

Chris,

Let us know how they shoot. If you want to have us cast you some slugs in 9mm, the thing to do would be to buy the mold you think might work and have it shipped here. The most economical solution will be the roundball by far so I hope they work out well.

Generally speaking,

at 100 yards, which is traditionally more accurate?
Round ball or Conical bullet?

Physics and aerodynamics dictate that the conical will be more accurate based on design, but from what I am hearing here, the round ball will be way more accurate?

Is this the case?
Is it because the lowered velocities?
Do conical bullets perform better at high speed rather than sub-sonic?
I always assumed that round ball had quick drop-off due to its shape and lack of aerodynamics, am I wrong?

Please educate me in the intricacies of the flying lead oh jedi masters..

Ummmmm .... educate says he ..... yes ... No? haha.

The "correct" slug will be far more accurate at distance. It is a factor of the drop off of round ball. Of course, the incorrect slug for the application won't work as well as the proper sized ball.

In the early days .... back when 50 yards was the known edge of the airgun world ... most everybody shot ball. And - most everybody shoot ball that was too small. You need to really stuff the bore with a ball. Now - at 50 yards, the right ball will shoot with a most slugs. Does for me. But ... when you get out to 100, there's usually a clear edge to the slug.

You just have to see. What YOU are dealing with is one of those happy situations where there is a ball that your barrel and twist rate likes. So - you can take advantage of that. Doesn't mean that's all you can shoot.





Gary

So then, what and where would the best slug be for my rifle. I already know what roundball fits best thanks to you guys, and I have some on order.

I don't want to go through ballistic products because of the $250 minimum order thing.

Chris

Chris,

I posted all of that information above. Look up the thread for the red headings, indicating new posts. Everything new won't be at the bottom. Most people respond at the place in the thread for which the new thought applies.



Gary

Quote
Gary Barnes
Lee has a pistol bullet mold that looks good. It's for a 125 grain, which I suspect is a decent match for you. A two cavity mold it only $18.99 including the handles for it. That's absurd. Other manufacturers charge $30 or more for the handles alone!

The two cavity mold is #145-006

It's in .358"

It's at www.midwayusa.com .... or 1-800-243-3220

Hope it helps.

Gary

They also have a roundball mold in .360" It's $14.99 handles included again ... and is #128-396 Pages 424 and 425 or catalog #30

Can someone get these 2 moulds for me #145-006, #128-396.

Apparently they don't ship to international retail customers.

Someone could get them and I could send them the money via EMT or PayPal or Visa and they could send it to me?

I would be happy to cast my own bullets and roundballs.

Chris

Chris,

If you're going to cast your own, you might want to check this out: [www.leeprecision.com]

That page apparently lists Canadian dealers or wholesalers of Lee products. You'll want to find a reliable source you can access directly for supplies. Once you start casting, you'll either quit or find you want to try different molds and need/want various bits of gear to make things go easier. You'll want access to that stuff quick and easy!

Talk about CRAZY finds. Hows this one CHRIS for 9mm AMMO:

[talonairgun.com]

That's insane!!!
Freakin fishing lures, whodathunkit?!



Chris

So I placed the order from Will Bilozir for the 000 buckshot and I also got in touch with the bullet barn and they said that I can get the 38 RNFP BB 130gr .358L and they can use a custom die to make it .360
The bullet is 9/16's in length, here it is;

Is this a good bullet or is it something I have to try first?

Looks normal. Should work. Try it.

What's the "custom die ... make it .360" ... if it's .358" ... try it. Are they planning to "swell it?" The 38 RNFP means "round nose flat point". That red waxy stuff is lube, but it might just get in the works for you. You can just dump them in a cup of lacquer thinner to wash that stuff out.

Cedric said his barrel was around .358"

At this point ,,, just get some things and try them. Buy 50 or so. You'll know if they work.

Gary

OK, I'm a bit confused as to sizing.

You guys are telling me that the best roundball is .360

The Eunjin pellet is .352 at the head and .360 around the skirt. I can manually push the head into the muzzle and it's tight, if I try to put the skirt in, it doesn't even start to fit. I understand that the skirt will squish to fit because it is hollow in the cup, but how on earth is the .360 roundball going to fit?
I don't get it.

Also, if I am looking for conical, again, how will the .360 diameter fit when the .352 diameter on the head of the pellet just makes it.????

I am totally confused. Won't the excess tightness make it harder to push the pellet out of the barrel and create a whole lot of back pressure and low velocities.

Are you sure about the .360 size for this gun?
It just seems impossible to squeeze that into this barrel.

Chris

Chris,

That's what the 3,000 psi is for. The lead is "displaced" into the rifling by the pressure.

If you can manually push a slug into the rifling with your fingers, then it's way, way, way too small. If that pellet's head is that small, and the skirt is .360", then they are intending for the head to be "bore riding" ... (see my other post to Neil... probably in the hunting section).

The .360" ball will only be cut around the waist of the ball. That's a really thin band touching the bore. That makes it very easy for the rifling to cut into that area.

Have you shot the gun yet? Sounds like alot of figuring and questions and no field reports. What's shooting accurately?

Gary

It's killing me!!!

I haven't even fired 1 pellet through it yet!!!!

I guess I'm so used to using military toys that I find it hard to see how air can squish the projectile into the bore. The airgun bigbore world is new to me.
But from what your all telling me, it is no problem!
I am going out to the cottage Friday night and will be doing some testing on Saturday.
The only problem is that all I have are the damn Eun Jin pellets! I won't have anything else until next week in the mail. I might get lucky and get some tomorrow in the mail, but probably not.

There must be a hell of a lot of pressure behind that pellet, no wonder they say that the o-rings get blown apart, that and the loose probe.

I'm gonna start my testing at 25 yards, 50, 75 and 100 and see how accurate these pellets are.
I'm torn between using a scope or open sights though.

I'll bring both.

Chris

Chris,

Dude, what are you waiting for? It's killing me too! haha.

Shoot the Korean pellets. Of course. It's not like anybody is watching.

Now, doesn't 3,000 psi sound like alot of pressure? It is. You know those split rings on truck tires that kill people when they blow apart ... That's 125 psi. That's why they inflate the things in steel cages built to hold King Kong. When that firing valve opens on your 9mm, that pellet is just a spit wad in a BIC pen tube. It's coming out the front!

Gary

Use a scope.

Well, I got out and tested the career.

You guys weren't kidding, the EunJin pellets suck.
Also, they dont feed well into the loading port, it's like they are too big
I think the pellet stop has to be adjusted.

Very inaccurate indeed.
I wasn't able to group anything smaller than a frisbee at 20 yards, it was pathetic!!

I am hoping that the roundballs that I ordered perform better.

They definitely have power though, I was able to punch through 2 2x4 stacked together at 20 yards, nice clean paper punch hole entry and huge 2 inch gash exit hole!!
This thing is much louder than my cooey!!

Chris

Hello Chris,

I've never even heard of a Cooey, is it a Canuk made rifle or what? Any photos out there?

BTW, I'm only about 40 miles from the Yukon border, what part of Canada are you living in?

Sean

A Cooey is a .22 rimfire rifle. Mine was made in the 50's. They were known for their accuracy and apparently everyone had one back then.
It's magazine is an under barrel spring loaded tube capable of 10 rounds.

Chris

Ah, I see. Sort of like the ubiquitious Marlin lever actions and semi-autos that we have in the U.S.

Chris,

Calm down....lol. The problem is that you obviously have yet to put very many rounds through your gun up until now and you've just been sitting around "THINKING" waaaaaaaaay too much about this. You are even at the point of doubting people before you actually do any field testing.

Be patient, the ammo will arrive soon enough and it will work just fine. Now as you can see by your latest shooting experience, I was right about the Eun Jins. And i'll be right about the RB's. And as Gary said, you being able to SLIGHTLY start a pellet into a muzzle and the pellets head is .352" doesn't mean a thing and ill tell you why, that barrel and many other EUROPEAN barrels on AIRGUNS are CHOKED at the muzzle by .001-.003" or so abouts. Choked means that the barrel starts at the breech end BIGGER (but not bigger than the caliber size) and then the last couple inches or thereabouts are gradually SMALLER at the muzzle. Thats why when you slug an airgun barrel you usually will be better off going from breech to muzzle and not vice versa. But slugging a barrel is a whole nother story that i'm not gonna get into. But that is one problem with airguns, sometimes its hard getting THOROUGH info on all the barrel dimensions. Most only can tell you the OD of the barrel in m.m.'s and the length and the caliber and that sucks cause you should also have access to info about the barrels lands and grooves. And i too (and many others) can start a pellet into the muzzle of any of my airguns. Finger strength vs 3000-4000 psi, ya just can't even begin to compare those 2 together

Now, as GB said, Round balls, although .360" have very little contact surface area as compared to a conical. In my gun, i shot .360 Round ball and .358 conicals that i had cast. No one at that time had .360" molds. At least in a bullet shape that i could use. And the RB's were deadly accurate.

That is the same bullet shape that i shot out of my Ultra. Only difference was that mine were 100 grains+- So yeah, that bullet should work fine.

And also, yes, i mentioned in the above post to ADJUST YOUR MAGAZINE SHUTTLE to its FULL OPEN POSITION. Once i adjusted mine, i never ever had a misfeed or jam. I could even mix a round ball and a F.P. bullet and the gun would not skip a beat.

ALSO, have you fixed your gun yet as far as the items that i mentioned at the top of this thread?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2010 09:34AM by Tofazfou.

I applied thread lock to the screw on tip of the barrel and hand tightened it and backed it off 1/8th of a turn and left it to dry. I need to empty the gun before I shim the probe and open the pellet stop, but I will do that before I test with the rb.

The thing jammed almost every shot with the pellets. I couldn't even fit a pellet in the right hand single loading side because the hole was too tight.

Chris.

I bought a 66cu foot/4500psi fb tank with the micro hose and fill adapter from Joe at hamradio.
I should get it within a week.

Cool Chris. Hope all goes well.

Also, when you open the gun to do your work, don't forget to LUBE you orings with either Divers Silicon or MolyKote/molylube.

Airgun factories have a habbit of send out DRY orings in airguns.