Well - THIS should be a great topic. It comes about, because I have this discussion so often. I hope you will join in. Here's how it usually starts:

I really appreciate your work, but I'm mostly interested in the function of the pc. I don't really need anything ... "fancy". Do you make any "Plain Jane" models? You know ... with all the fine performance, but none of the artwork?

OK. It's not an easy nut to crack. That's because:

1). Most people are used to there being a "Plain Jane" model to everything.

2). Any ornamented models of "stuff" we're familiar with, are typically Plain Jane models with some gingerbread attached.

3). Most people's experience is that it's the gingerbread that really costs the most.

When it comes to handmade custom work, the nature of the work will determine if those previous points hold true. If you are talking about a craftsman who targets craft shows, and internet stores, then he probably does have a base unit. He might just ornament that model for the few upgraded orders he's asked to fill. However; there's a different way to make an "upscale product". That is to design it "From the Ground Up".

With my work, one of the major misconceptions I deal with is the actual value of the "gun's action" which I have made. About 95% of "Custom Guns" start with a completed action. That action might be tweaked and polished a bit ... but it wasn't handmade with the purpose of becoming a high grade artifact. It was "tapped" on the shoulder for an "extreme make-over". That's not what I do.

Most people are really, really into "Stocks". And, I don't mean Wall Street. Because they love the woods, and the grains, and the finish, the lines, the balance ... so much ... they attribute far too much relative value to the stocks. I've written, since the earliest pages, that the stock is about 5% of the total work of one of my guns. People simply do not believe that. There are two parts to that: 1). They can't believe the stock took that little effort. 2). They don't want to believe that the action COULD take that much work.

When you find custom airguns on the net, what do you usually find? A commercial action that has been reworked, and restocked. I take nothing away from the joy in making, or owning such a fine pc. The fact remains, that the final product began with a functional airgun. I begin with a pile of steel, aluminum, brass, delrin, and wood. That takes a bit longer. Add to that the fact that I do far, far more than is just basically "required", and I invest a tremendous amount of time and effort into the action of my rifle.

In the past, I've experimented with "back to nature" designs, for the purpose of trying for the "Plain Jane" gun. A couple of things happened: 1). Perspective buyers immediately began asking for prices on optional "upgrades". 2). I automatically upgraded the build, at each step, because I felt safety, and proper craftsmanship demanded it. 3). I ended up making something much better than I'd planned to make, and sold it at an agreed price which generated significant loss. You see, you cannot start with a dirt basic design and price structure, and then "hang on" features which make the pc. into a properly functioning and ornamented pc. What you get is a junky pc. which does not support the artwork which has been hung onto it.

Now, the reverse is also somewhat possible. You make a delightful machine which has been properly designed and crafted ... which is so plain and devoid of personality that it looks like everything else of one tenth it's value. When I ornament my work ... I do so because I believe the structure supports the effort. AND ... because such a fine pc. of work, deserves to demonstrate some "personality". It needs to express it's family tree. In fact, I sell my artwork so inexpensively, because I feel it needs to be on the pc. Because I've spent so much time on the action, I cannot charge what the carving and engraving are worth. Price some deep relief carving and engraving sometime, for an eye opener.

Then on top of the whole thing, I offered the origonal Ledger system, and now ... the Reverse Ledger system. In both, I made it so easy to acquire my work, that the cost of the artwork just melted into the total package.

If I truely just sold my finished action, stuck into a baseball bat stock, and got any decent money at all for my work on the action ... the final package would be viewed as way too expensive. You see, the thing is ... were I to make this actual "Plain Jane" gun; I'd have to make a list of compromises to degrade the current product. Nobody asks for lousy machine work. Terrible triggers. Maybe a hammer that grinds it's way along the stroke. The assumption is that I should be able to include all of the refinements which take so long to make ... and then just don't "fancy it up".

I can just see the high school proms. All the pretty girls are standing around the walls, with sad faces. Because, all the "Plain Jane" girls were the first ones asked to dance.

I'll tell you this: I'll bet you that it's simplier to buy one of my completed rifles; then to buy a production model and send it to all manner of specialists who upgrade a dozen features. Even if you end up paying more for the Barnes .... I'm talking about the easy downpayment, managable payments, and the value of the completed unit down the road.

Last part: "Realitive Value". It's the "difference" between A and B, that make up most of the choices in life. Years ago, I was producing one of our airgun festivals, when the gasoline prices shot up quickly. Everybody was writing to tell me that they could no longer afford to come to the show. So; I asked them ... OK, what was it going to cost you to come at the previous gas price? What would it cost you to come at the current gas price? It's not the total of the current gas price that it's going to cost you .... it's the "Difference" between what you were going to spend, and the new total. So; a few people realized that they were going to stay home for $50 difference, and they came to the show.

Now; here's the deal with plain jane guns. What is the "difference" between the two ... and we're now not just talking about the total dollar cost. One reason is, with the reverse ledger plan ... the difference will be a few dollars a month, or an extra month or two of payments. The other thing to consider is the final "value" of the product. You'd have had to been here when I've read sooo many e-mails which told me that they went to tons of gun shows ... and that the stuff there with the detail and carving I give ... are fifty thousand dollar guns ... and were made in Germany last century. When you can get the final package, with the personality and presense it has, as easily as I make it ... will the "difference" seem to have been a good savings twenty years from now?

Well, that's how I think about it. I just can't truely find buyers who want me to grind out a few rough as a cobb PCPs. What do you guys think?

Gary

You make beautiful functional powerfull artwork and i do not understand. Why they would want something else.Tell them i have a sam yang for sale. And you can,t get any more plain than that. I do not think it will last very long compared to your air rifle,s. And to me it will not compare in ANY way.............. again i do and will cherish the work you do for me, and so will my son Brandon. Don

Hello Don,

Thank you buddy. I appreciate it. I wish I had your gun finished - and I wish I had one too! hahah.

There are no shortage of plain guns around. I was just talking to another customer who is selling two of his.

Thing is, I see no reason to spend 40 years learning skills, in order to make what's readily available for a little bit of money. If you get deeper into most of these discussions, you'll find that some hope that "my effort on a #3 scale" will be a bunch better than "other's efforts on their #10 scale". That's sort of a compliment and a reach for my wallet at the same time.

Gary

I guess people react to what they see. The stock pops out but hundreds of machining steps for the action just seem to "have happened" in the background. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

hi gary, i suppose your either fortunate or cursed. thing is most people, which i was included until i thought about it don't understand what it takes to do what you do. i think your numerous posts should educate most and you have to decide whats best for you. there really are no other parallels in the real world to what you offer. major manufacturers sub out work. heck, even porsche buys a transmission from the japanese and harley partnered with porsche on an engine. crazy world we live in today. they have stockholders to please and you don't. my business is service and buying and selling products which are already manufactured or have been traded back and forth. to me, if you can do what you enjoy and make money at the same time it's a bonus. the older i get though i realize my time is limited and i try to get the most return for my time. but then again i'm not a master gunsmith.
steve

Hi Steve,

Yeah ... all of that really is a loosing battle. Things is .... 99.999% of people just don't care. Nobody that can afford it, is gonna pass up buying the Porsche with the Japanese transmission. And, I'm very sure that the tranny is a gem.

It's a "head thing". And, I'm not going to change the world. I've mentioned before; article by Sam Fadala (whom I like a lot) ... mentioning how the guys that make reproduction long guns ACTUALLY have to OCCASIONALLY make a part that they can't buy from a catalog. And, THEY are the gunmakers.

Once again, I think much of it goes back to "attention span". It takes a looong time to learn real skills. Personally, I don't see most of the things on "America's Got Talent" ... as master crafts. They've taken the thing people can learn in a short time, and decided to CALL them skills. There's a reason that there's few other people doing what I do, as I do it. Because they never learned to do it. Not intented to sound superior. I don't play the violin. Never learned to. There's a radio commercial, that I hear, that mocks taking 10 seconds to download a file. They actually play ten seconds of dead air, to remind you of how your life is just draining away during that time. With that idea being taught to everyone from an egg ... who is going to take many years to learn real crafts and skills? They'll buy a barrel, standardize, and order in the parts for the rest. There are factories and shops just waiting to run your program and zip out a box of parts for you. And then, you can order in an acid stencil to put your name on it. And, only my customers (or their demographic) will care. Most will be quite pleased with their production gun (called custom by today) ... and will start going thru the "options" catalog for screw on personalized pcs.

Oh ... isn't HE snooty? That's the part I can't win with. I DID take the time to learn all of these skills. Did take the time to accumulate the shop and tools. But then, it's frequently viewed as ... "well ... sure ... you have all those tools and skills ... dude". So; that's why I work for a tiny percentage of buyers. It's not the price. For the work, the price is cheap. It's for the people that see the difference, and care.

BTW ... survived the Epidural Injectioins this morning. Yeah.

Gary

happy your injections worked. my father in law just had them last week and he's still complaining about the pain. when he's not playing golf he's bothering me. he's gonna give it another try. he told me the first one worked for months and the relief duration got less and less with subsequent injections. hope yours goes better
steve

Hi Steve,

I hope he finds some relief.

Don't know if it helps, but for about 5 years, they've done it under live X-Ray. The Doc spends quite a bit of time poking around to get the 5" needles in just the spot he wants the. I've also had it done without X-Ray, and got good results too. Maybe I'm a good subject. My Son has a bad back from injuries. They also operated on him at the V.A. Hospital. He got spinal meningitis and nearly died. He still hurts. And, the injections he's had never helped him. They work for me, and I'm grateful.

Now, if I can switch off the headaches, it would help. Darned things come and stay for a month, then leave. Always something.

Here's the good thing ... if your father-in-law is playing golf ... he's not in severe pain.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2011 12:02AM by barnespneumatic.

That's a Comcast ad . . . I know it well. Just another thing to hate about a horrible company that I despise . . . worst customer "service" ever.

If it's done right, at a high level of quality, it takes time. Good customers understand this. You're better off without the ones who don't. And that's true for any business.

-- Jim

Again Jerry has an even better description on how i do not understand the people that make these comment,s. But then i know he appreciate,s what Gary has done, and will continue to be his friend forever, and be gratefull for all the artwork he has. Again, just my opinion....

Gary, your correct. It's all about TIME...The time it takes to Learn a basic skill, the Time it takes to Understand that Skill, The Time it takes to possibly Master said skill.
And in today's world, we are taught from the beginning that Nobody has the Time to do anything reasonably well because THAT would cost To Much Money, and waste way to much Time. It's a Societal thing and we are all the poorer for it.
I truly appreciate what you put into the making of your rifles and i for one don't mind abiding myTime to get a properly made Masterpiece.!

Rick G.

Hello Rick,

Well, you're gonna make an old man cry ...

Thank You very much.

If only you could learn all this stuff, and then not be a broken down heap. haha.

I appreciate everyone waiting. And, I do my best. Work wise, that's never been better. Endurance wise ... well ...

Now ... if ya'll have any good headache remedies, let me know. The biggest "Pain" I am ... I mean "have" ... is that all the aches and pains migrate around, and change from month to month. Get the injections, it turns the pain down in the hips and legs. That's great. So; now I have to become a pharmacist, and decide which dosage of which pills will deal with the rest. Get it wrong, and win the magic prize. Then, the stupid headaches will come, and stay for a month. Then, vanish like smoke. Why? Who knows. Today's Doc told me to see a Neurologist. Since getting these injections isn't my favorite thing, it raises my BP. But - changing from the baby cuff on the machine to the big cuff, lowered my BP 34 points on top, and 15 points on bottom. But - the tech., when seeing my BP elevated (right before they drive 5" needles a mm from my spine) ... always reminds me, "That's WHY they call it the SILENT KILLER!!" That always calms me right down.

Hey ... "it's all good" ... isn't that what this generation says? Or ... no ... what they say is "REALLY??? really???

OK ... well, the ghost of shops present probably awaits. hahah,. Night.

Gary

theres no padding on a renne mackintosh chair.
no spoilers on a snow goose
polar bears dont wear shoes
no alarm function on a rolex
simplicity is the ultimate sophistication,,,, sleek is sleek , beauty is in the line.

Oh ... there ya go whining about that trigger gaurd again !!! hahahahah

Yes - I'm with you. The line is something that you can't make up for with tinsel and lights.



Gary

The problem is that for the vast majority of people, when you say "airgun" the first (and usually only) thing that comes to mind is "Red Ryder" and the automatic price-tag machine in their skull pops up a number... at about $25.

Even if it's a Beeman Catalog type of airgun guy, the ragged edge of the "airgun price envelope" is probably right about where the fourth digit north of the decimal point kicks in, at the outside. And THAT better be the atomic-powered just-slower than lightspeed 0.000CTC accuracy model. AND it better be able to do that with a ten buck tin of pellets that you can buy at WallyMartWorld. It's an airgun,they just cost that much, right?!?

If you were selling custom double shotguns in leather lined cases, nobody would blink an eye at a $5-10k price tag. Especially if it's got a chunk of fancy wood and deep dark blueing and a patch or two of nice engraving. It's a shotgun thing, they just cost that much, right?!?

Custom knives (with no moving parts, mind you), the sky's the limit. If you're the "in-name guy", just name your price. They just cost that much, right?

As I see it, you're gonna eventually end up with two lines. The "off the shelf" lineup, made up of a handfull of copies of whatever model you feel like working into the production schedule. Minimal fancywork, maximum function, a league above what the rest of the airgun world is working on as far as its power level and accuracy go. Still costs as much as a custom rifle with a good scope, but the average Joe can still afford it if he really wants to. The other line has got to be the equivalent of the custom double shotgun, but in the airgun world. Custom made to order, one of a kind work. Maximum detail AND maximum function. Costs accordingly.

I know it goes against your artistic grain to separate the two, but if you keep making champagne airguns at craft-beer prices you're gonna work yourself into the grave. This isn't the made-for-TV "custom motorcycle" world where a spectacular paint job can camoflage the fact that it's actually a slapped-together-from-catalog-parts machine underneath the fenders.

With airguns the proof is in the target end of the equation. No amount of sparkly ghost-flame paintjob or chrome-plated "billet" doodad is gonna make a shoddy rifle both shoot like a tackdriver and hit like a sledgehammer.

Just my random two cents worth for the day...

Hi Sean ...

Now ... THERE is a discussion. haha. I'll be back after I mull it over a bit.

Yeah ... you know what is really missing in that equation for the top line detail and price? It's the "front room". As it is ... "I" am the front room. And, that just doesn't work. You don't get to go into the shop and talk to the engravers. You don't get to go chat with the guy that's building your racing engine. They're busy. And, they are getting paid enough that they don't have to work 80 hours a week and fix the stupid tools too.

I always wanted this to become more than just making and selling an airgun. A person like me really doesn't HAVE a life. We're consumed by the ideas, and the obligations. I figured that people would be sooooo grateful if I managed to "bring back" the experience of the shooting festivals of old. I was wrong. They couldn't care less. So; I don't get to ride in and really, really enjoy the weekend. I get to show up early, work my butt off, and leave late after cleaning up. I figured people would love to compete. I was wrong. They barely want to shoot at all - certainly don't want to compete. So; you don't need a lot of trophies. I figured there could be an "auction" at these shooting festivals. Wrong. The handful of people who actually will come, are all friends by nature of similar interest, and the default that they are the only five who feel it's special enough to come to. They won't compete in an auction against each other. I thought there might be something develop with industry. Nope. Thought there would be such stories shared among users, of such great times with the guns, that all of the above would blossom. It's real slim. So; it remains in a strange state. Hey - I'm no fool. I know how rare it is for one guy to do all this stuff, AND build the tools, AND even the the building, AND do all the promotion, And public relations. But ... there's no template for it. It doesn't exist in any other experience people share. It comes right into your desk PC, so there's no effort required to be entertained. So; it's just this little secret - sort of a your own little live elf in a cigar box on the closet shelf. Add in the odd ball health issues and getting older ... and it just should have been a bit more ... fun. But, until such a time as I can just be a guest at an event, and people actually will come to it ... then I keep making these amazing things with stone tools and a busted back. Heck ... the vulgar guys you refer to who fight each other while they hammer together commercial parts and sell bikes for big six figures ... they'll amass a NASA shop after the cable show pilot airs. I guess I'm just a bit too "civilized" for the culture. haha.

Fine ... yes ... I know ... I was gonna think about it. I am ... that was just a "reflex" action.

Gary

quote "I figured that people would be sooooo grateful if I managed to "bring back" the experience of the shooting festivals of old. "
shame people didn't appreciate the functions . i'm sorry i missed them.
steve

Hi Steve,

Yeah - me too. Well, here's the thing: we now live in a DVR/On Demand world. The whole concept of "Missing Something" is an antique concept. People are convinced that all you have to do is "catch the next one", or click the "Replay" button, and the whole experience will be replayed at a time and place convenient to you.

You can't win the argument. "One of my six kids has one of his fifty eight soccer practices that Saturday." Well, of course ... you can't miss that. Who knows how that might warp the little tike. Require years of therapy. As the attendance list falls away ... you end up enjoying a nice private weekend with a core group of people you've come to know. All of which have a number of great, well rounded, well educated, polite children. Somehow, missing one soccer practice didn't ruin them. Now ... you tell me ... how can you ever build something requiring the attendance of today's population.

That's just a raw nerve that throbs to life every once in a while. Been burnt with that one quite a few times.

OK ... there's nothing to see here ... let's move along ... hahaha.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2011 07:27PM by barnespneumatic.

oh, don't get me started. we've become a led society and everything has a schedule. i try to resist as best i can but with media, peers and also relatives it's a losing battle.I'm not giving up though.
steve

I'm pretty sure if we can find an apprentice for you to treat poorly, we can get you on TV. They'll have to buy you the NASA shop first though as there is no room for a film crew in the hollow shop round the tree!

and you will have to drill everything with one of those horris stepped drill bits ,,, you wouldnt be happy.

Nah, the film crew will leave tons of those around when they're done drilling little holes in everything to snake the eleventeen metric tons of cables around to run the lights and cameras. After they've sawed access ports for the mobile cameras through all the exterior walls, and re-arranged the entire shop interior to give themselves better camera angles. And strategically placed all the consumer products that they've hit up for sponsoring and commercials, and removed all the products that refused to pay for sponsorship, and generally changed things around completely so that it's more convenient for them to capture the "authentic" Barnes vibe.

Yup, that's "reality" TV,all right.

I could tell you stories about the Discovery Channels level of authenticity, for sure.

Hi Sean,

Gee - what a poor attitude. hahaha.

Yeah ... funny thing I've noticed. Sort of a "Barnes Therom": Your ability to enjoy any "How To Show", is in inverse proportion to your knowledge of the subject being taught.

When you listen to the host describe anything which you are remotely familiar with, you will realize that he's a total clown who knows absolutely nothing about the subject. At that point, his absolute tone becomes especially grating as he babbles thru mistake after flaw after nonsence.

In my humble opinion, the Tutles put the final nail in the coffin of TV. Since their rocket went straight up, you cannot watch a cooking show where everybody is not swearing at each other with bugged out eyes while throwing leather couches thru plate glass windows.

But ... that's just one man's humble opinion ....



Gary

Tutles?!? Guess I missed that one....darn.