FINALLY had a chance to put the Outrider on a bench and do some pellet testing.

I have two pellets to choose from, the Kodiak and the JSB Exact Heavy. I started with the Kodiaks because they are a favorite for my 22cal 707 Carbine, I didn't even take a picture because the spread was huge, maybe 2 inches. At first I thought I was doing something wrong so I tried another string of shots, minor improvement maybe 1.5 inches. I was initially disappointed but then remembered the JSB Exacts, I quickly sized up 6 pellets with the Barnes provided sizer and die and tried again. By now it was getting dark, not the best scenario, but to my surprise I was able to get a really nice group. These were the first 6 rounds of JSBs I have put through the Outrider 25, I couldn't really see the impact so I was quite happy when I walked down to pickup the target! The range is setup a little over 30 yards away, I can go further into the woods and further back in my office to get 50 yards. Can't wait to try it!
Side note, I was feeding air directly from a tank which was at about 2400psi.

We also retired an old iPad2 which my wife accidentally dropped and cracked and smashed every square inch of the screen and case. So, she got a new one for Christmas and the boys and I had some fun punching holes in it with the Outrider.






Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2017 04:41PM by Sal.

Hi Sal!

Great! Glad you got yo shooting. Hey, did you get my package with that new iPad2 screen and repair CD?

Ahhhhhh..........ooooooooops ............. nevermind ............. I read farther .......

That's a hard set of circumstances: couple of lousy groups when an ammo isn't a fit. Dusk. Improvised range. Then, the "found" group when you go up to the target. I did that with the 32 Chameleon, in the rain at the range. Did it with new ammo and the Brand new Grey Fox. Have been shocked at 200 yard groups. 100 yard smooth bore Justice groups. I usually do that stuff when nobody is around!!!! NUTZ!!!!! I look around ... Hope to find a hunter or camper to verify .... nuthin ..... nutzzzz

Haha

Glad you whipped up some encouragement. Looks good.

Just ate dinner at the bench. I went to find that paper you provided with the exact measured pellet sizes. Didn't find it yet ..... wait .....!!!! Idea ......nahhhh ..... that's the pellets themselves. I'll measure them.

Great to see!!!!
Gary

Sal,

Nice shooting. The Kodiaks don't group in all of my guns either, although they are typically a "Go to" pellet.

The Ipad screen crack pattern looks like it would make cool knife scales.

Lon

Howdy Sal
That looks like a great time . I don't know if you said or not but did you also get the .50 cal barrel with your Outryder? I'm really blown away by the power of mine . I can only imagine shooting a pellet less than 1/2 the size !

How's the shroud working for you shooting out of your office ? I'll bet it's way more friendly with keeping the neighbors and the house quiet . I sure wish I had an area I could just pop the window open and launch lead . This time of the year ( freezing ) in Michigan it would be perfect .

Thanks for sharing

Thanks
Kurt

I found a couple of nice pics of Sal's Outrider XXV





Great Rifle!

Wish I had a hundred of them!!

Gary

I'm shooting first thing in the morning tomorrow so I'll snap a few more pics and answer some questions too!

Hi Kurt, I did not get the 50 cal option with this Outrider, it is strictly a 25 cal. I could shoot a 50 out here but it just wouldn't make sense with the combination of noise and the cost of 50 cal ammo. The boys and I usually shoot about 200 rounds a sitting and while the Outrider 25 is quite suppressed it is still loud enough to need ear protection inside, the sound bouncing off the walls feels like it wants to pierce the inner ear after 10-20 shots. Outside it's much better on the ears but kind of loud for long shooting sessions, our neighborhood is WHISPER quiet (which I love) but hearing that snap sound over and over would draw attention. The neighbors all know I shoot out back and have shown them the ropes but I still like to keep it on the down low.

The trigger is very nice, not has light as my TX200 but has a nice break which is appropriate for an air rifle with its power. I have a 20 year old Bushnell 6-18x40mm scope on it now but the reticle and site picture just don't focus right. I tried to fit a Hawke 4-12x50mm but I'm having trouble finding scope rings tall enough to clear the shrouded barrel If it's not one thing it's something else, go figure. I found these FX No Limit 2 piece adjustable scope rings which are 4mm taller than the Beeman 5040H I had, I'm praying they are tall enough! I'll update when they come in, should be here next week. I love 50mm optics, the brightness and ability to shoot well into dusk is just awesome.

Today is a super blustery day, Andrew (my oldest) and I put around 100 shots (give or take a few "I bet I can hit that stick" shots) through the Outrider. I tested 4 types of 25 cal pellets but I'm afraid the results are just not accurate, waaaay to windy, we where lucky to get lead on paper. The aluminum 90 scuba tank started at 2700psi and we ended at about 2500 and change.

A shot down the range, a bit clearer than last time, that's 35 yards.

Andrew shooting while sporting stylish "hot orange" ear plugs.

10 shots each Baracuda Hunter hollow point 27.47gr and Kodiak 31.02gr.

10 Shots each JSB Exact King 25.39gr and JSB Exact King Heavy MKII 33.95gr.


What the heck is up with having to go to my phone to use the "Place inline" function for the pictures? LOL anyone else have this problem?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2017 07:35PM by Sal.

Segment 1).Hi Sal, and Readers. Well, looks like accuracy Sux. Bummer about the Noise. Aggravating about the scope mount.

I'm taking a bunch of pics. I have some data to share. Some thoughts, and explanations. Will take a while. Make Coffee.

Let me put in the official disclaimer up front. I'm not aware that Sal is upset. And I'm not either. But we need some 'splanin ....

I'll be right back. Measuring and all. Pics. Etc, etc

Gary

I can see this stretching out, so in going to mark the Segments. This is Segment 1



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2017 10:36PM by barnespneumatic.

Segment 2

I want to address the data points that you can easily find in Sal's post today. First of all, I repeat - there is NO hard feelings either side, but the targets posted, sound levels, and difficulty mounting glass need some discussion. Let's start at the beginning.....

I designed a completely new, fresh sheet of paper; PCP design. At the same time, I developed the Barnes 50 caliber barrel, and three 50 caliber slugs for the barrel. I called my new gun, "The a Outrider 50". I decided to make a series of 5. The a Prototype performed very well. Right up to expectations, and a bit more. I agreed to make the Series of guns for various buyers. My good friend Sal stepped up, and said he'd like to have one. The exact order of when/how isn't important - I'm not sure I could assemble the steps ...but shortly Sal asked if this Outrider could be made in 25 caliber?

Now, you need to know that it's not just a matter of threading on a different barrel, to wildly change caliber. To have a nicely balanced PCP, the firing valve design must be considerably different between 50 caliber and 25 caliber. So; in order to help Sal, I'd have to lay back the valve body I'd already made. Ok. The barrels on the Outrider are threaded in. I like this best, where possible. Clearly the 50 and 25 won't use the same interface threads. So; I'd have to lay back the reciever for the 50 and make one for the 25. Another thing .... The Outrider is designed as a "Jig Welded" Component Rifle. That means the main component housings of each Outrider are prepared, placed in the Master Jig, and then welded as a Unit. This makes a "Hub" of housings to which, and in which; all other opponents are threaded in or threaded onto the Hub.

This will be THE Poster Child for "Just Say No" when it comes to Custom PCP rifled. Hsha.

This is segment 2

Be right back. Have a bunch of pics and data.

Eating Dinnner ..... Yummmm

segment 3

Ok. Dinner was great! Yummmm

Over dinner, my mind recalled the planning of the Outrider 25.

Sal asked if I could possibly make the Outrider in a 25. I thought just a bit, and said I'd do that for him. Great!!! Then, pretty quickly ... he asked if I could make it a Carbine. "Sure, why not." Whattaguy! Hsha.

I think there was a bit of time then, and Sal had been thinking about his neighborhood. "Could you make it ... Moderated???" . Haha. Now, you know that somewhere along the way .... I should have said, "No." ...... Hah.

Ok .... Some pictures and more discussion and data ....



Here is the 50 caliber too end reciever, bored, threaded, with scope rails, transfer port seat, etc. This is the one I removed to make another to 25 caliber specs.



Now ... Here is the 25 caliber barrel I made for the gun we are discussing. Wwhhhhaaaat??? Why do I have it?

Ahhhhh ...... That starts the next segment.

This was segment 3

segment 4.



So; how could I have the barrel to Sal's Outrider 25???

Well, you recall how we kept morphing the details of the gun? Well ..... You recall that part about "Making it a Carbine?" Yep.

A Carbine is a short rifle. If you happen to be dealing with a fitearm, you can make a carbine shorter and shorter - without any real trouble. However; any PCP derives its final power relative to the length of the barrel. A PCP pushes it's pellet the entire length of the barrel. As you shorten the barrel, you remove the opportunity for the air to push the projectile. I agreed to make a Carbine for Sal. But then, he also wanted it to be "Moderated!" Uhh ohhh. . Now the barrel has to become EVEN SHORTER YET!!!! A moderator works by putting a chamber IN FRONT OF the muzzle end of the barrel. Usually, there are also a series of baffles in that chamber. I did my best at judging how long the barrel could be, for power and accuracy. Then, I added the chamber and baffles, keeping it all as short as possible. I bonded the entire unit to the barrel, so it could not be removed. I also machined it so that the space along side the barrel was also expansion chamber. It ran all the way back to the breech. I then made the breech cover slide up inside the tail of the shroud, and kept a sleek look.

Oh, BTW .... All of the hammer Tube components had to be different too. Different hammer. Different spring. Different spring guides. The new components had to play nice with the trigger group designed for the 50caliber gun.

But WHY do you have Sal's barrel and what the heck is he shooting!!!???

Ahhhh. I finished the gun. Think I had the front barrel clamp too. Got it all together. Tested it. The new firing valve, actuated by the new hammer group, fired into the new barrel, moderated by the "best possible Shroud unit" .... And ..... It was just too loud.



this was segment 4

segment 5

Somewhere along here, the gun had been discussed on the forum. I guess that it was coming soon. Sal told me that he had stocked up on pellets. He sent me two of the kinds he'd gotten. I hoped they would work. Nearly everyone who wanted a custom 25 from me, wanted a Fire Breather. And so I've made Light weight 25caliber to shoot 140+ foot pounds.

As Sal discussed his gun, his need was for a less powerful unit that didn't upset the neighborhood. The idea for quiet .... quieter .... became a point of discussion. I knew he was gonna be disappointed. The gun was too loud. And so ..... I just started over on the entire barrel and shroud. I couldn't take the shroud off the barrel. It was all bonded. I'd have ruined all of that work. The barrel and shroud was perfect. It just didn't suit a Carbine like this. It might make a long Victory type pistol, so I didn't want to destroy it salvaging parts. I just took it off the gun, with its breech cover. Set it back in inventory, and turned a dozen or so green completion dots on my build sheets, back to yellow.

I didn't have another 25 cal. Barrel blank in stock. So I had to go back to the steel inventory, choose seamless tubing, get out the tooling. Set up the rifling bench, and pull another 25 cal. Rifle barrel blank. I honed the inside. I crowned it. I chambered the barrel. Then I milled the loading port. Polished all. Threaded the barrel. Polished the chamber. Then began to make the new breech cover. I machined in the O ring grooves. Machined and polished the exterior. I had to make s new breech cover for two reasons: 1). I wanted to keep the original tuned set of barrel, shroud, breech cover - together. 2). I had decided the only way to try to get the gun quiet for Sal, was to increase the diameter and length of the shroud. I now needed a greater diameter breech cover slide.

I machined up all of the shroud parts in the larger format. When everything was prepared, I bonded all of the parts to the barrel. I made a new greater diameter front barrel clamp. It was a huge amount of work. I really hoped it would work well. Listening to Sal describe shooting, regarding the sound level .... It appears I did not meet the need. But then, the air of the blast from shooting, has to go somewhere. I mean, it's going to escape the barrel, right behind the slug. All you can do it play tricks with it. Bend it around. Shear it over thresholds. Make it jump from chamber to chamber. You can't "contain it". So; at a certain point, best is best. Especially if you are trying to make a Carbine format. Only other thing is increase diameter of shroud. Increase length of shroud. Increase length of barrel and shroud. Decrease power of the rifle. You expect a Custom Rifle to have some noteworthy power, so it's hard to say what's best.

Note; I had made the original unit in the same diameter as the reciever. 1". When I made the second unit, I used 1 1/4" material. Sounds like little change, but there is 78% more volume per length unit. It's surprising. And, since the 1 1/4" is centered, the difference is divided by half. Thus; 1/4" larger diameter .... Centered on the long axis .... the new shroud sticks above the reciever only 1/16". I don't know why there's trouble mounting glass. If it can't be rectified commercially, I've made scope rings since the beginning. I could machine to need.

Now. Let's address the dreadful accuracy shown above.

This was [/b][/b]segment 5

Segment 6

Actually I'm going to do that tomorrow. Worked all day. Neck is tired.

Hope I'm making sence. Remember, I'm not posting a rebuttal, just 'splainin'

Smile
Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2017 03:17AM by barnespneumatic.

Sal
Looks like the wind was blowing off to the right a bit . I'm sure once you get your scope all set it'll be good . My .50 is a beast and I feel delinquent because I haven't made a big game kill yet like Scott . I have played around a lot though . I did some squirrl rounds that Gary taught me to make . They did pattern well and got a couple of bushey tails !
My son also has the bug and really enjoys shooting air !
Good luck and thanks for sharing

Thanks
Kurt

YOu MADE SHELLS and you SHOT SQUIRRELS with your Outrider 50, and you DIDNT MENTION it?

Ok .... now I have to lay down ....,

You know I debated making that post today, I was even thinking about not showing the results shooting in such blustery weather. It's not representative of what the Outrider is capable of or really which pellet works best. In the end I was like "what the heck" someone would appreciate the reality of not shooting in pristine conditions, maybe even open some eyes if someone was thinking about taking a kill shot in similar weather. Sorry Gary, I sure didn't mean for it to spawn into hours of work to explain a bunch of stuff. I am sure you had better things to do this Sunday.

As far as the scope goes, I know, it's totally my fault. I fully understood making a shrouded, moderated, 25 cal version of what was originally meant to be none of those things would involve some compromises. I am very happy with the Outrider, it looks great, shoots great, it's light, it's plenty powerful for me and it's unique! The little extra noise is a MINOR inconvenience, we have used it outside several times already with no issues, I'd just rather be safe. The property slopes down, keeping the bench inside for more accurate target practice just works nicely.

Thanks Gary!

I appreciate your post Sal. Thank You. I'm glad you like your Outrider.

I'm just gonna show some reasons why your groups are not tighter. It will be some data to take into account. Hope it helps.



Gary

segment 6



What you are looking at is a "Slugged/Swagged" print of the muzzle end of a section of barrel like Sal's. I have a few cut offs. A couple of pistol length barrel blanks if that run of barrels. I took a ball of #2 Buckshot (which is .270) and tapper it into the end of the bore.



Measuring the outside of the print (which is a copy of the bottom of the rifling grooves), we see its .251". Two hundred and fifty one thousandths of an inch. Twenty Five Caliber.



When I designed these barrels, I also designed these slugs for them. These and a few more. I'm showing them because these are the slugs I released to Surefire Casting. Jerry and his Sons cast (Jerry was the Quality Control and CEO), they cast literally hundreds of thousands of these. It was found that they worked extremely well in the Condor barrels. We developed a color method that stayed tight on the slugs and didn't effect accuracy. The nine ring black slugs got named "Black Mamba" and they couldn't make enough of them to satisfy demand.

I believe they offered the slugs in .251" .2515", and .252". My barrels liked the .251" - obviously.



Now, here's the head of the Beeman Kodiak. .249". It's skirt is larger, but the head is .249"



Here is the head of the JSB. It's also .249". Again, the skirt is larger, but the head is .249"

Now, have you heard of "Bore Riding" slugs and bullet heads? In your barrel, there are "Grooves" and there are "Lands". The lands are essentially the original tube of the barrel BEFORE it was rifled. The grooves are the ..... Grooves ...., which were cut or swagged into the inside of the tube of the barrel (or the bore). (I say that the lands are "essentially" the original state of the bore BECAUSE the tube may stretch in diameter by the button rifling process as the CHERRY is dragged or pushed thru the bore. If the barrel is thick, it doesn't stretch. If it's thin wall (like most AIRGUN barrels - to save weight - because we don't have a 50,000 psi blast going thru it either) thin wall will stretch.

Now... the lands are uniform. Mine have slight knife edges. Uniform knife edges. Precision reamed uniform knife edges. So; IF a LAND DIAMETER cylinder shaped lead bullet were formed thru my barrel, there would still be rifling cuts shown - even though the lead didn't deform down into the grooves. BUT a cylinder bullet produces tremendous drag. So we put grooves in out bullet designs. Where the grooves are determined flight characteristics. "Bore Riding" bullets work, especially IF they have fatter "Drive Bands" at the rear to grip the rifling and spin the slug. You can reduce the force required to expel the slug by making much of the bullet length "bore riding". Now .... A PELLET appears to use this technique when you see that the head of the pellet and the skirt are different in size. The head is smaller. The Skirt is larger to fit and seal the rifling grooves and to resist the movement of the pellet out of its chambered position and into the bore UNTIL breech pressure builds to a high enough pressure to deform the skirt lead and force the pellet to slip its mooring. BUT BUT BUT, pellets DON'T ACTUALLY WORK as BORE RIDERS ..... IF they are of the classic Diabolo design. It was later in the build when Sal sent me some pellets he'd stocked up on. Here's my mistake in thinking that Sal would be OK with his pellets. I knew that the heads of his pellets would be cut by my knife edge lands AND be cut somewhat - maybe a thousandth or two, by the lands. And it was obvious that the skirts would be deeply engaged. But, it appears that the heads are not engaged deeply enough.

Better post this. I'm on my phone and dare not loose all this.

This has been segment 6