I know this is probably odd, given the big-bore nature of Gary's work, but, for some time now, I haven't been able to find my Daisy M-188. That little spring-piston gun has been the most fun gun I've ever used... I probably had near 20,000 rounds out of it, and it was getting tired. Still, with a rated performance of 215 fps, it did the job without excess fuss, and with a spring piston's natural quietness, perfect for late-night snail and slug hunts in my now residential neighborhood.

Well, to make a long story short, I've been thinking how neat it would be if Gary could design a neat little BB pistol, with the option of smoothbore for steel or rifled for lead, and with an adjustable power range, from about 225-450 fps. Or, perhaps to simplify, a choice of one fps/power level setting. With a standardized design, it would make for a (sorry) "mass production" style item, with the option to customize, to suit individual need and wish. Add a handpump, with the gun designed to opperate on the least needed pressure (I've heard CO2 opperates at 1200 psi), and it should be easy to keep fed. Oh... and the important thing! I recently poked about, and found that several makers produced CO2 pellet and BB pistols made to resemble Colt SAAs, so I was thinking a recreation of this style airgun... Barnes Style... would make for an instant classic.

Anyway, thanks for allowing me to share my crazy thoughts....

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Hey Roose,

Funny, I've been thinking along the same lines. Actually, I wasn't going with BBs (because of the steel bounce factor indoors) but was going with small lead ball. It's been in my mind for years. I've even set aside a few parts over the years. Never finished one though.

I think there's a need for something that can be shot indoors quietly (clearly with proper precaution, proper preparation,

Something easy to find places to shoot would be good fun. Maybe promote some on-line competition.

I'm on the job. But, I'm committed to getting all the ledger guns out the door. Big job there. Unless you were standing here watching, you'd be amazed at just how much work just the last 15-20% of a handmade gun can be.

Great idea. Thanks for sharing.

Gary

Gary,

Great to hear from you... don't know whether you remember, but I'm the guy on StraightShooters who gave you the idea for a falling-block PCP, and felt happy to see you run with the idea. Though sorry he didn't have the finances available to take one of the five offered slots, back when they were available. Ahhh, well....

Anyhow, yes, small lead ball is fine. My option of smoothbore steel was more for the environmental factor, the non-toxicity of steel when it comes to handling and use. And, well, steel BBs are what my Daisy used. I still remember that summer I put about 12,500 rounds through that pistol, dealing with a grasshopper infestation. Most fun I've ever had with a gun, of any kind. With low power, proper choice of target, attention to backstop, and care in handling, steel can be useful. And cheap, so you can shoot so much more, for the same dollars. What was it... six dollars for each 5000 round carton, to clean out those grasshoppers? *grins* Lead would be great for indoor and target use, and perfectly suited to field use. In the garden, though? I think steel would be safer, especially at the lowest power level. Good for slugs and snails in soft, damp earth, without the concern of lead in your vegetables. I'd even like to see up to a .32 version, though .25 would be better, as a "barn pistol". Should work for rats and feral cats, perhaps? An SAA revolver style would also appeal to the cowboy in our souls... at least in my soul.

I also like the idea of online competitions. Oh, and another thing: You could make it optional for the gun to use airsoft ammo, those little 6mm plastic "BBs". It'd be even safer for indoor use, plus you could also offer the option of a switch-barrel/mag design, so it could be switched between lead and airsoft ammo, for those who like the dual-use idea.

I understand about the ledger guns, and your temp halt to new orders. I come from a family of machinists... grandfather and uncle... so I understand what a miracle it is, when that finished project is finally sent out. I have a great deal of respect for what you do, every day. Problem is, I'm a creative sort, and my head keeps popping out stuff. For this gun design, I've had this rotating drum configuration rolling through my head. A fixed inner drum, with a spiral groove to feed the BBs, and an outer, rotating drum, geared, to handle feeding chores. Something like that, though all the little details would need working out. This way, you'd have a revolving mechanism feeding ammo, and a gun with "mechanical interest" and involvement, like a fine watch. You could even have it load ammo through a loading gate, just like the old Colt. But... just my imaginings. You probably have an idea for something simpler and less potentially jam-prone. Durability and reliability would have to be a given. Will be a given, with you on the job. Thanks....


Take Care...
Roose

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Sounds simple enough ....

Keeping it under $20k might be a problem. But sounds fun. At least the ammo would be cheap!

Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the chuckle. I figured you'd say something to that effect. Funny thing is, I've seen custom rifles made in .22 Rimfire, guns with five-figure prices made to shoot cheap ammo at small things. But I get your point. My Daisy 188 cost me less that $15, but returned a fun factor way above its original cost. So, $20K for a BB pistol? If I had the cash to spare, I'd be tempted. Like I said, though, it was all just my creative imaginings. All I know is, a neat little manual repeater PCP pistol for eliminating garden pests would be great to see. Due to my Daisy wearing out, I bought one of those CO2 PPks pistols. Compact and fun, but its crack made the neighbor's dog bark... not a good thing at 10pm.

I remember that drum magazine. Nice. Puting a mag on a Tundra Magnum sounds interesting, but semi-auto? I see images of the Thompson, rat-a-tat-tatting away. Not that it wouldn't be fascinating, to see you produce at least one PCP Thompson for posterity. Yep, all those "little details" are killer, better to follow the KISS principle. The Daisy 188 had a simple, twenty round gravity feed magazine, with magnetic retainment of the BB in the breech, with an under-barrel cocking lever that both opened the bolt and cocked the spring... check to see a BB had fed, manually close the lever and bolt, aim, and fire. That worked great for me, even against all those grasshoppers. You could still give such a gun a "classic" form, even if it doesn't look exactly like any other gun ever made. Wrap it in an aluminum shroud, with lots of room for engraving? Colt SAAs are simple, rugged guns... my thought, really, was for a BB repeater with that same simple, rugged aspect, if not the looks. I fully realize my own concept would overcomplicate things, but it was still fun to come up with. I also have one of those Crosman 600s, quite a feat of airgun engineering in its own right. A manually operated version made in the same spirit, but with less to go wrong, would be interesting to see. Every time I pick that thing up and hold it in my hand, I keep having the phrase "Beam me up, Scotty" going through my head. However, I'm sure whatever you come up with will be excellent, as usual. Just me, being creative again. *grins*

Jerry, Lon,

Thanks for the support. I still think such a gun would be a challenge to produce, and an accomplishment to be proud of... once Gary awoke from the exhaustion of designing/making it. However, I don't think anything Gary makes could be compared to a $19.95 airsoft gun! All you have to do is look at that Hoss Pistol. Simple in form, elegant, yet not at all... ummm... "normal". Even if Gary made this neat little gun as a single shot, just for lead, it would still be a neat little gun to own and shoot. My "fantasy", if you will, was a PCP recreation of my Daisy 188, able to be operated with one hand. Open loading gate, dropp in 20-40 BBs (steel or lead), close gate. Finger off trigger, tilt barrel up, thumb-cycle the action lever to set/cock trigger, unlock and open bolt to feed BB, release thumb lever, bolt closes and locks, feeding BB securely into breech, point gun down, aim, press trigger, pop snail (or other target), repeat. Neat little gun, mechanical interest and involvement of a repeater, useful garden tool.

Again, though, just my imagination running overtime!


Take Care...
Roose

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That rotating drum idea is neat! You can spiral load a couple hundred BBs that way and the whole thing can still be light enough to operate via a double action trigger. You'd need a single action stop for the precision work of course.

Gary,

You made a .25(buckshot) pistol with a round drum magazine didn't you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2009 09:13PM by Bigbore.

Jerry, Lon,

You are not helping.

I like to forget about the drum magazine. What it promoted was an enormous number of people asking me if I'd make drum feed semi-auto Tundra Magnums.

Roose mentioned the "little details" and the "durability and reliability" factor. No matter what you charge for it, that fiddly stuff isn't worth the time and aggrivation. "Designing", is nailing down every one of those little details, along with the methods of producing them. It also involves proofing a working prototype in the field.

I've thought of a small, fun, indoor pistol. Hadn't planned on hand making Swiss watches.

Gary

Well aren't you just bringing reality into sharp focus again?

That's ok by me though. I'm interested in cannons now! If you made a little revolver for 10 meter and less shooting, it would get compared to everything from serious 10 meter guns to $19.95 airsoft guns.

The Yukon... Well now, it doesn't get compared to anything does it? It's pretty much incomparable!

I agree with Jerry, the low-power repeater/10-meter/airsoft market isn't going to do Gary any favors. All you'd hear is how that "fancy hi-dollar Barnes gun don't shoot no better than my Crossman XXX" or whatever. Gary already has the Victory line of pistol/carbine in the linup for lower-powered lightweight fun, and there was that pretty little .25 rifle as well, I remember a bit about it shooting through rubber floor mats off the porch at night with Kelly.

If you're concerned about dumping too much lead in the garden, there's already a ton of imported CO2 pistols that can run those lighweight zinc pellets, or go with the airsoft option. The latter especially ought to be plenty of "medicine" for slugs and snails at close range, and if you can do it with a full-auto MP-5K replica so much the better! : ) Maybe what somebody needs to come up with is a biodegradable airsoft pellet, I find those things all over the place at the park up here.

Now if Gary should somehow find a way to come up with a semi-auto rifle in the 300-500 ft/lb range, maybe a bullpup design, hmmm..... ; )

Rotorhead,

You have a point, there. Problem is, whatever Crosman XXX you choose, it's gonna look like a firearm clone, and it's gonna have lots of plastic in it, not wood and real, quality steel. Something to shoot, and when it breaks, buy another. No, I was thinking a lifetime purchase, even if it cost four-figures. And yes, I liked that Victory! Though I've also looked over the Appolosa and, I believe it's called the Maverick? Nice, light rifle/pistol configurations. Oh, and what was that light rifle with the pistol grip? (It wasn't the Chaparral carbine... I think it was called the XXV "Something"...?) That one, if I had the funds, would be perfect for me, I think. I happen to like the quarter bore, though I've never owned a gun, air or otherwise, in that caliber.

Steel rusts, plastic airgun ammo doesn't, as you've noted. And I still prefer "one shot, one kill." And no... I don't think Gary will ever come up with a semi-auto like that! Not that he couldn't, but...? (see his above post...)

I think a simple muzzle-loader in that power range would make a fine huntin' gun, and Gary already makes those, so we're set....

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Here's a couple of possible alternatives that are available now.

[www.pyramydair.com]
[www.pyramydair.com]

The Drozd by Baikal requires batteries and CO2 cartridges (it can be bulk fed the latter) but it can and does shoot BBs either semi or full auto. Not exactly up to target pistol standards, but it oughta be fun anyway. I'm not sure of it's construction, but I suspect it's mostly plastic and moldings with a steel barrel, I'll bet that somebody here has handled one at least so maybe they can let you know. I'd love to get one to play with, but the hazmat charges just kill us when shipping stuff like CO2 cartridges (no UPS or FedEx ground up here) so it's not practical for me.

The IZH-46 actually IS up to target pistol standards, but it only shoots pellets so you're stuck with either lead or zinc. It's a single shot, single pump pneumatic and is more accurate that you will ever be able to hold it. I bought one of the first of this model that was imported into the US and have been shooting it for years, they come from the factory with an incredible trigger, BTW. They were initially priced at <$100, they're about triple that now and still well worth it. They are all metal and wood, mostly blued steel and hardwood in fact.

The first models only shot at 300-400fps so they're very, very quiet. The newer IZH-46M model is about a 500fps pistol, so it's bound to be a bit noisier though I hardly think it'd be noticible over even light traffic noise. I regularly shoot mine indoors with no hearing protection and no problem. Since it's not a springer you can shoot regular lead, zinc, plastic, or felt pellets without worrying about damaging anything, Frankly I don't see how they could have ever made any money selling them at their initial price, I think I got a real steal of a deal on that one. As a factory gun it's not a one-of-a-kind piece like Garys work, but they're very nicely made and have a substantial feel, much like a regular cartridge target pistol.

Rotorhead,

Thanks... I've seen both of these, before. I've also wanted a Drozd, but have just not been able to come up with the money. Or have, but found something else to spend it on, like a 1938-made Winchester Model 61 (my last major purchase... traded an Uberti Remington 1890 and some cash for it). However, the Drozd is a bit bulky for the purpose, and I was on a site selling them, where they'd made a video demonstration... the Drozd is a bit loud for late night residential neighborhood use (don't want to risk a visit from the police), but otherwise looks like a fun piece. The IZH does have the rep for being a good buy... cosmetically a bit rough, but functionally quite accurate for formal target use. Not suited to a holster, though, but definitely much more substantial than anything from Crosman or Daisy, and definitely not conventional in looks. If I can ever find what I did with my Daisy 188, I might just look into having it rebuilt, as the cheapest way to go. But I'll keep the two you've mentioned in mind. Who knows, Gary may still, one day, decide to build a neat little BB gun for the kid in all of us. Thanks....

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Roose,

I have a Drozd and its a blast to shoot. It's more steel then you think, sort of heavy for its size and not too noisy, but it puts BBs down range fast. It eats up CO2 fast so you only get about two loads of the mag before it needs a new cartridge, but its fun.

Keith

Roose,

Good luck with your search. Perhaps one of the multitude of CO2 semi-autos will suit you, I haven't had a chance to handle any of them myself, the only airguns I've got now are the IZH-46 and a Beeman R-7.

I do remember an article about one of the early Russian imports that was based on a Makarov pistol. I seem to remember a Tom Gaylord article or similar on the subject online somewhere. As I recall they were a little TOO close to being a real pistol, so the BATF stopped their import shortly after the first ones got here. That'd be easy to find a holster for, but I'd bet they're not cheap these days.

rotorhead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Roose,
>
> Good luck with your search. Perhaps one of the
> multitude of CO2 semi-autos will suit you, I
> haven't had a chance to handle any of them myself,
> the only airguns I've got now are the IZH-46 and a
> Beeman R-7.
>
> I do remember an article about one of the early
> Russian imports that was based on a Makarov
> pistol. I seem to remember a Tom Gaylord article
> or similar on the subject online somewhere. As I
> recall they were a little TOO close to being a
> real pistol, so the BATF stopped their import
> shortly after the first ones got here. That'd be
> easy to find a holster for, but I'd bet they're
> not cheap these days.


From what I read, they were a little too close because they were made with an actual Makarov, not a zinc recreation, like the PPKs CO2 I own. I guess the BATF was concerned that people could convert this BB gun into a REAL Makarov way too easily, thereby circumventing all their crap firearms laws (no forms to fill out, no "waiting period" required for an airgun). Yep, I wanted one, but the PPKs was cheaper and easier to find... that, and I bought it before I found out about the Makarov version. Definitely a collector's item, now, more's the pity. Well, if I can't find my Daisy, then I can send my PPKs back for a needed repair (unfortunately, the early PPKs pistols had a fault, and mine no longer works properly... and mine failed out of warranty). So, yes, someday I may find a good substitute for my Daisy, for popping snails and slugs. Still, I do think Gary should build a "Garden Pistol" for those of us who think it would be fun. Besides, I love escargo....

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Escargot?

after even a relatviely slow pellet/BB, there's enough left to cook?

Now Dan, you just couldn't let that go?

dan_house Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Escargot?
>
> after even a relatviely slow pellet/BB, there's
> enough left to cook?


Yes, but you have to remember to remove the BB before you eat it...

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2009 03:51AM by Roose Hurro.

Roose Hurro Wrote:

> Yes, but you have to remember to remove the BB
> before you eat it...
>
Got a good recipe? On the barby..... several on a skewer?


Ok, I'll stop now......

dan_house Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Roose Hurro Wrote:
>
> > Yes, but you have to remember to remove the BB
> > before you eat it...
> >
> Got a good recipe? On the barby..... several on a
> skewer?
>
>
> Ok, I'll stop now......


Peel off the shell, use a little garlic spread, and enjoy... *grins*

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Oh, something I'm curious about, Gary...

When it comes to fill pressure with a BB gun, how low could it be, with a spec of 225 fps, and how would this "minimum" fill pressure effect the number of shots? I guess I'm curious how various fill pressure specs (maximum/minimum) would effect shots per fill, given the same fps target spec, in the same gun platform. Am I right in looking at this as a question of efficiency, where a higher/lower fill pressure would have diminishing returns? This could be thought of as "balance" in a design, I would think. But then again, I'm not the expert! Thanks....

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