Here is Kelli's Victory 32, K-type, in pistol format and the Chaparral 25 without it's buttstock, as used to win the first Erwin Cup in Jan of 2005. The cup was a great time for everyone in attendence. The Victory was our first Barnes. It was the sister of fraternal triplets. This one features a brass shroud over stainless receiver and reservoir. The others were blued over blued and stainless over stainless. The stainless also had a carbine and laminated pistol stock format but with more masculine lines in the carbine form. Both carbine stocks had been made with the beautiful mahogany wood and pebbled accents. The blued model came with a walnut pistol stock only, as I recall.

The Chaparral was actual acquired at a latter Erwin Cup on the sly by my wife and presented as a surprise present. No you can't be adopted but you may use this to shame a loved one. The Chaparral is by far the most favored by my kids and smaller shooters as its stock is adjustable in pull length. Both these formats were made specifically to shoot inexpensive buckshot accurately. They use 0 and #3, .32 and .25 respectively. They also do even better with Barnes slugs made from Barnes molds, which I leave to the good folks at Surefire Casting. The Chaparral barrel is shrouded and free floating. It is my most forgiving shooter as its recoil is minimal despite its feather light weight.


Here are the two guns showing their buttstock and carbine stocks respectively.


Here the game was to shoot 25 buckshot as fast as you can load at the 9 in square target at 50 yds. I filled to 2800 with the Victory and 3000 for the Chaparral. I then shot 3 strings of 6 and one string of 7. I missed a couple and had a lot of fun. I had to reset the steel target back on the 6x6 after shot 18 from the Victory. It had walked it off the back of the timber.


The separate pic of 5 shows the Chaparral shooting some quick 72 grain slugs. Not a trophy group but you get the idea. Also notice the flowers made from the impact of the 25 cal buckshot.



The knife on the left I acquired from Nordic Knives in August 2008. It was obviously kept in new unused condition and therefore has no "life story" attached to it. This knife was made Aug 6, 1990 and was numbered 1020 and as you can see it is a beautiful piece. In is my most "glitzy" knife and would fit in at any black tie event. The small "tail" on the blade allows for quick one handed opening via the thumb. It is a liner lock with liner face and spine elegantly filed. The scales are red, green and black inbedded in a gray silver flaked matrix with matching struck floral wreath medalion centered, gorgeous!
Gary added this detail: The materials on this knife are what's called "reconstructed mineral". It's stabalized mineral ... force injected with resin of some sort. Acts, works, looks just like the natural state of itself, but more stable and not as brittle. The shields are sterling silver repousee'. The detail is pushed up from the back of the sheet silver to stand in relief.

The other knife is long on history which Gary tells:

My very first folding knife. In those years 1975-76, almost nobody in the custom knife books made pocketknives. They were so much more complex. I decided to "go for it" and made my first folder a lock-back folder to boot! Finishing the knife one winter's day. I slipped it in my pocket fo the "Sledding party and bon-fire" I'd been invited to, for the evening.
It was a moonless night, and the sled track down the hill was difficult to see. We decided to cut some branches to stick up beside the trail to make it more visible. In htat moonless night, on the hillside, I hacked at briars sticking thru the snow. On and on, until we'd marked the trail. The knife went back into my pocket, and we enjoyed the evening.
Next day, still glowing with pride at my accomplishment of making a lock-back pocketknife, I pulled it from my pocket to admire it. As I opened the blade.... I jumped back as if it had bitten me!
What???!!!! Alarmed, I examined the area around a missing "chunk" of the blade. The hard thin blade had not been well suited to the quick cutting/twisting motions I'd asked of it with the tough briar stems. I ground out the blade damage (from the edge back... the thumb notch was always there...) and the knife remains...

This story gets back to Gary's reminder to document the history of your collection and that those with a history of use are much more valuable to you and other collectors than those which seemingly fall from the sky onto ebay.. SO get out there and shoot those Barnes's. I'd love to come across Gary's TSA knife if for no other reason than to present it back to Gary. It was a fine knife with a deep history.

Oh, BTW Gary's first folder has brass liner and bolster. Brown woven "fabric" scales pinned with brass. Gary adds "The brown knife material is called "Canvas Phenolic". Phenolic resin is one of the first plastics, IIRC. That's actually real brown canvas material that has been saturated in Phenolic resin under pressure. Makes an extremely hard, stable material. Of course, the weave, color, etc., goes all the way through. You can machine it, thread it, grind, polish it, Neat stuff. My memory tells me it was used during WW2 for aircraft gears and pulleys - light and strong. So ... the stuff is 60-70 years old. I see it as sort of a "analog carbon fiber"". Lock-back. It is a very slender knife and would fit a pocket well. It is still tight over the 34 years.



Kent



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2009 01:03AM by Cajun Justice.

Ooohwooooo ...... Purdy.

Thanks for bringing them out and sharing them. IIRC .. the pocket knife on the right is from 1975-6 ... the other about 1993.

Hey ... notice Kent's great targets too ... torched out of used "I" beam. They'll hold up to anything. Very satisfying to send those heavy targets flying with a 58 or Justice!

Gary

Notice the flowered splats of the buckshot. See the radial rifling cuts and the spot in the center. The spot is from the bolt seating the ball ... and the radial cuts show that the ball traveled the fifty yards without rolling. It flew just as it went into the breech ... like a bullet.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 02:34PM by barnespneumatic.

That is some splat factory you have there! The guns look great. Who won the game?

2005?

Has it been that long since those guns have been out, or is that a typo? I thought both the Victory and Chaparral were fairly recent designs, and then taking into account the build time...?

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I see ya crunching the numbers. Brings up some thoughts. Not all just form your comment ... but things I sence in some other posts as well.

The details are thus: Hope some find it interesting. Will take a few minutes ... might not be for everyone.

As I've always published, throughout the website, I'm in this business to make my work for friends. These weren't old friends, I met these friends on the net. They placed orders on the ledger, and didn't stop there. They communicated. Shared stories ... got to know me and I them. We became friends ... and it makes it so much nicer to be working late some Saturday night to complete something for a buddy ... then to be at the end of a 10 hour day just to pay another monthly bill.

Well, friends get together. I started processing the public airgun festivals: the Standing Stone series. I did four of these festivals. Promoted the things for a year at a time. Worked on them all year to prepare. Dumped a huge amount of money (for me) into each of them. Invited one and all, hoping to build something for the whole hobby. (I know ... poor me ... ) And, the stories of how that all went are on the grid of my web page. While there were good embedded experiences, but each festival had a group of people who did everything they could to make me miserible, and ruin the experience for everybody. I said "the heck with it", and I started processing private shoots for my friends. I didn't need the grief of working myself to death for a lousy experience at the hands of strangers.

I've mentioned on my site, countless times as well, that a percentage of buyers will simply see me as a vending machine. Place the order ... disappear after that ... not care to follow the daily briefing pages or current events ... and then just pop up years later totally shocked that anything has happened in the mean time. That's their choice. They don't owe me a friendship, but that doesn't have to be the way I spend my life. I've already worked hard since 1969. Anymore, with chronic pain hounding me, I'll take a few enjoyable experiences with some fine friends, in among the seven day work weeks.

So; with alot of interest in big bore pistols for a few years, I decided to develop them. I made three of the Victory Class pistols. Three at once. We planned a private pistol shoot in Kentucky, and had about 15 friends attend. We all shared the three Victory pistols, a Chaparral, and the Hoss 45. And, I offered the three Victory pistols to three ledger customers who indicated they'd attend. I let them draw down a significant portion of their ledger accounts already paid in, and then they paid the remainder of the pistol's total cost. That reset their existing ledger account, pushed it back some, and in that way ... got new work into the field for testing, delivered product to waiting ledger customers, and didn't harm the other ledger customer's positions. The three owners voluntarily set themselves behind the curve some. As a matter of fact, I've made similar offers to ledger customers before who didn't care to accept. Made offers to let them use my own hunting rifle until theirs was done ... no thanks. So, I try. I do reserve the right, being in the business, to have a rifle of my own when I can pull it off. And, I then loan it, or sell it only to ledger clients.

I don't think any business lays out more inside information than I do as a matter of policy. In fact, I sometimes catch grief for explaining more than required. I do so, in an effort to make it clear that I'm aware of everybody on the lists ... and I do my best with balancing all the business needs, and try to have a life in there somewhere too. Some buyers have found that they care to develop a friendship with an old craftsman .... most do not. That's their choice. However; I can't then be required to mind read who might care to attend a shoot, or be interested in a given PCP. I've always said that I very much value the folks who take the time to become friends. They're just going to know more about the business, see more opportunities, attend more functions, and be in the right place when things happen. You don't know the times I've had my buttstock chewed by somebody who was sure they had a conspiracy all figured out. However; I'm just one guy doing his best to meet ALL of the obligations of the business, in the most fair manner I can process.

Just for clarity ... I didn't want Roose to feel that all this was answering his comment. hahah. It just got me thinking. Uh-oh ... never a good thing.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 05:58PM by barnespneumatic.

Thanks Gary for the background. Just dusted this one off from the archives . . . here's a link to the 2005 Erwin Cup. I see a few familiar faces there . . .

-- Jim

Yes, it was in Jan of 2005 when these, which I believe were prototypes to answer the requests Gary was getting for large bores which shot cheap, available, factory ammmo. In his usual out of the box way, Gary not only filled the need but went two better by making it possible to shoot extremely cheap buckshot (5#/$25) accurately. Most consider or have been informed that only conical bullets can be made to shoot accurately. Remember all the musket balls that couldn't hit the side of a barn at 50 yards? Well these are always smacking a 9 in square every time out of a pistol format! Gotta love that! Now I will admit that the Surefire slugs Jerry and the boys cast make both of these guns laser guided. The first Erwin Cup was shot solely with buckshot, yet the top shooters missed less than a dozen in nearly 200 shots at various yardages, off hand, and in pistol format. Yes, it was a blast

Kent

Hey ... had anyone picked up that the Victory pistol above ... is the same gun (literally the same individual action) shown in it's carbine stock elsewhere? This bias cut Color Laminated stock and the Mahogany carbine stock offer a totally difference experience for the same action.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 10:42PM by barnespneumatic.

Gary, thanks for the long-winded explaination, even if it wasn't all towards me... And no, sorry to say I didn't notice...

Cajun J., muskets couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 50 yards because they're MUSKETS (smoothbores), not RIFLES.

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And Justice and Woodsmen are smooth bore too. Ya just need the right slugs ... which I hadn't yet developed for the antique muskets.

See Roose H, to poorly paraphrase the Men In Black, there's that "What we KNOW today" getting in the way of other possibilities.

I remember suggesting to Gary that I probably would "outgrow" the usefulness of the Chief Justice as it was a lowly smooth bore. I then was amazed at the accuracy even out to 100 yards. It always get the biggest grins as people watch the shine off the base of the slug as it tracks it's way to some hapless steel target and send it cartwheeling. I haven't even scratched the surface with the 32 and 45 cal inserts yet.

I hope I can get the inserts dialed in like Jerry's Woodsman with the 32.

Kent

Yeah, smoothbores just can't hit the side of a barn. Good thing there wasn't a barn behind those little steel critters I was pounding at 70 yards last time out with the Woodsman!

Yeah, everyone knows that rifling is just a crutch for gun maker who can't make straight barrels.

That's right Sean!!!

If you need "tracks" under your bullet ... you just need to learn to drive better! hahaha.,

Gary

And speaking of smoothbores, how hard is it gonna be to talk you into some duct-seal carnage photos starring the .62 barrel while it's still set up, Jerry? I'll bet you're already stalking the aisles at the local Home Depot trying to round up enough of the stuff for a life-size pig.

Well.... I thought about it but decided to not get into the duct seal shootapalooza. Seems to me that area is very well covered as it is. And I'll do well to not spend yet another chunk of money for something dedicated solely to shooting! Now, there are other .62 smoothbores out there that could be used for such a purpose...

Jerry,

You better reconsider that lifesized pig thing Rotor suggested. I got 'chur duck seal right here, Was only tw..... FIVE dollars a pound. I can spare some for ya.

Oh ,,, Kent,

The brown knife material is called "Canvas Phenolic". Phenolic resin is one of the first plastics, IIRC. That's actually real brown canvas material that has been saturated in Phenolic resin under pressure. Makes an extremely hard, stable material. Of course, the weave, color, etc., goes all the way through. You can machine it, thread it, grind, polish it, Neat stuff. My memory tells me it was used during WW2 for aircraft gears and pulleys - light and strong. So ... the stuff is 60-70 years old. I see it as sort of a "analog carbon fiber".

The materials on the other knife are what's called "reconstructed mineral". It's stabalized mineral ... force injected with resin of some sort. Acts, works, looks just like the natural state of itself, but more stable and not as brittle. The shields are sterling silver repousee'. The detail is pushed up from the back of the sheet silver to stand in relief.

Gary

Oh ... you being a Pain Doc and all ... I saw the pain specialist this am. He's going to do an injection Wed. of the right side Sacroiliac Joint. Said my severe pain this week is classic. I just googled it too ... and it was a dead ringer for this week ... described it perfect ... almost said my name. So - another horse needle. He also said if it didn't work, he could go in with needles and "burn" some pain receptor nerves. fun, fun.

I seem to recall phenolic resin being used in some Lionel Electric Trains' components during the prewar / postwar switchover period.

-- Jim

Thanks Gary for the info on the knives. I'll copy it to their respective files for future reference. That phenolic is some neat stuff, must have been real inexpensive or made of whale oil for us not to be using it anymore.

I'm glad your doc has a good plan. Of course it's all easy when the patient is actually in the same half of the country as the doc. It's nice he is going to work quickly for you I don't have a spot available for 3 mos.

Best,
Kent

THREE MONTHS!!!! Did you move to Canada??

Have they already wrecked the health care system??

People will be flying to Timbuktu to get treatment.

Gary


Oh ... I still use Phenolic ... just got some green for knife frames. It's still made.

Gary, ever thought of using that Phenolic for cosmetic stock-inserts?

Yes, smoothbores can be accurate, if the slug/ball is the right size. Problem with those old muskets? For quick loading in the heat of battle, the ball was undersized a bit, so it would drop down the bore unaided, and could be seated quickly and easily with the ramrod. So, that ball ended up "bouncing" down the barrel, and accuracy suffered... which lead to the concept of "volley fire", and the use of musketeers in ranks.

Now, a properly fitted ball/slug can work quite well in a smoothbore, so yes, Cajun, your Chief can indeed "knock 'em dead" a fair distance away...

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Roose,
I would question two of your last assertions: the concept of the undersized ball and the idea that inaccurate fire led to the volley fire idea. It seems to be that a ball that "bounces" down the bore hardly needs a ramrod. I understand that time should not be wasted pounding away at a too tight fit in the heat of battle but the idea that rounds were "bouncing" down" barrels seems a stretch to me (and I suppose to all those poor guys who got shot!). Second, volley fire seems to be a great way to keep troops organized and on task in a very difficult situation. It is also a great way to mass fires, especially when you consider taht volley fire was a platoon drill and many platoons were on the field. If I had to fight a war according to Napoleanic war era rules, and all I had were muzzle loading guns, volley fire from multiple platoons would be a great tactic. Unfortunately for some...there are no rules...

Roose Hurro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
that ball ended
> up "bouncing" down the barrel, and accuracy
> suffered... which lead to the concept of "volley
> fire",
>

Bouncing... well , not quite.

The fit is/was loose compared to todays barrels with rifling and precision made bullets. But the slop was enough to greatly affect accuracy.
Also the manufacturing processes of the day were cruder for both barrel and ball, so precision is lost at every step.... And remember that most musket bearing soldiers were not riflemen, unlike the frontiersmen or hunters who carried the Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifles.....

Phenolic is still used for control cable pulleys on many small aircraft, and I've seen it used for control pushrod bushings and similar applications on light helicopters and other aircraft. When the aircraft manufacturers and the FAA find something that works, they stick with it...sometimes forever. ; )

You could say that they're resistant to change, but that would be a massive understatement.

Rotor,

Interesting! Nice to have confirmation.

It is a great material. The base material is made with endless layers of paper (paper phenolic). A fine grain material is made from linen (linen phenolic) and shows a fine weave. It's very strong, and attractive too. Another grade is made of canvas material (canvas phenolic), and has a more bold weave. I've also heard of "Rag Phenolic", which has the most bold pattern, and almost a swirl pattern. Color is beige, brown, green, maroon, and black.

Gary

Also used to be used in circuit boards.

Ok, I give.

Bias cut laminate? In english , I think that means you cut the lam on an angle...... which amplifies the pattern that emerges during the shaping process.....

or am I way off base?

Exactly correct. "Bias cut laminate". Take a look at the Pistol stock or the stocks on Jerry's Prairie 3. Also means you have to start with considerably more material than you end up with.

Gary

Sorry, "bouncing" is a relative term. And am I right that it wasn't till the advent of rifling that the use of snipers came about? A single rifleman, using precision, aimed fire? I always thought volley fire came about not just for tactical reasons, but due to the poor relative accuracy of those early smoothbores, compared to the first true rifles. Been a while since I dived into the subject, so it could just be my own impression. Most likely is. Hmmm... just remembered the big tactical reason for volley fire had to do with the one shot/reload nature of the muzzleloader... first line fires, steps back to reload... second line comes forewards... that tactic. Still, the more lead thrown downrange, the more likelyhood of a hit...?


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The concept of "sniping" has been around for a while. But it was the British in India that the term "sniper" came from. Hunting birds called "snipe" which apparently are difficult little buggers to shoot. Thus, someone who could shoot them was a "sniper".

One thing you have to remember is that the use of muskets in European armies is a linear evolution of pikes and swords. Thats one of the reasons the musket had those big long bayonets... after the lines broke down, it was a hand to hand battle again......

And that must have sucked.....

A thought ... going back to some of the origonal comments of the thread. For whatever reason ... everybody got the memo that round ball from muskets were not an accurate combination. The factors of that equation that seem to have stuck, universally, seem to be "roundball" and "smooth bore". And, of course, "inaccuracy".

To ... when you set out to work with "either" round ball, or smooth bore barrels, you have the old "lore" to overcome. The Justice and Woodsman guns managed to bring the smoothbore component out of the 18th century, with the advent of the carefully developed Barnes slugs. The rifled guns designed to work with the round ball component have been the Chaparral, Victory, Appaloosa, Scout, and even the 58 series.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2009 12:34AM by barnespneumatic.

Lore is hard as heck to overcome! Folks just want to believe it. It's comfortable somehow to have something that "everyone knows." There are a bunch of guns out that can and do shoot round ball very accurately, there are also the Justice and Woodsman guns that shoot custom designed, specific Barnes slugs very accurately. The ball shooters have plenty of evidence out there and the Justice and Woodsman have pictures and videos plastered everywhere and still...!!! The perception persists that you can't hit anything with a smoothbore. This might be valid if you're talking about a militarily useful man portable gun on the battlefield; but, at airgun ranges it has been proven conclusively that an accurate snoothbore is not only possible but fielded and returning results daily!

I can vouch for my Scout 45 being extremely accurate with roundball. Lots of folks at the Cajun Cup tried it out, and it quickly became a favorite on the Woods Walk due to its light weight. It's a great, fun offhand gun which happens to be powerful enough to take a deer. Having said that, late in the afternoon on the second day when we were all tired, I plopped down in a chair, clipped onto a line, and ran through about a box and a half of .454 Hornady roundball just shooting off of my knee. The little slide breech is great for that. I was even able to take one of the 143 yard ground hogs with it -- again, off the knee.

This shot was taken by Jerry sometime last winter. I'm shooting with Scout offhand (roundball of course), and looks like Gary is printing groups with the unfinished Carnivore 58? This is back when the Scout was a muzzle-loader -- note that there's no slide breech collar.



My Delta 45 and Alpine 45 also shoot great with roundball. Gary and Jerry especially love it when I triple-shot the Alpine with roundball (it's also a muzzle-loader) and they fuse together on impact. It will also shoot a single 140 grain .454 roundball at 1040 fps.



-- Jim

Actually Jim,

I think that pic was taken after Katrina (note all the rip-stop tarps) ,,, when we were holding off that band of looters after our big screen TV.

You know what? I think this thread is now officially "beyond repair". We might even qualify for a bail-out!

I think all we need yet, is a Monster truck and a duck. Anybody?

Hey wait! I just noticed that Kent dropped in more pics. The same action in the pistol and carbine formats. Maybe there's still hope ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2009 03:55PM by barnespneumatic.

Actually Gary . . . if it were a post-Katrina pic, you'd see the Louisiana National Guard clubbing us and taking our rifles away in front of a Dateline camera man.

Anyway, I completely agree. This thread is TOO BIG TO FAIL!

-- Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2009 04:25PM by Jim.

I was thinking of the M1 when I added in "man portable." There are a number of larger weapons that have been outfitted with smoothbores because of the extra flexibility this allows in projectile type. I seriously doubt the sniper story... It makes for an interesting bit of folklore though.

Getting back to the original post though, you never said who won the game?

"This might be valid if you're talking about a militarily useful man portable gun on the battlefield..."

Yes, this is what I was talking about...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good thing for the enemy that the military has not bought Gary's slugs!

Guess what guys....The main armament of the M1A1 and M1A2 is the M256A1 120 mm SMOOTHBORE gun!!! Effective range greater than 3000 yards. Since the C Justice is 22.5mm it is considered a cannon and therefore its size and weight is proportional to the classification.


Are airgun being used by the military now|? Dr Robert Beeman rights " Powerful, modern, silenced, 9mm PCP airguns are being used by U.S. Seals in Iraq to snipe at insurgents. Firing an M-16 at dawn or dusk could attract a lot of return fire to the flash point." I can't find a citation or confirmation for this, sounds doubtful to me.

Kent

Muskets!

(hope I spelled that right...)

Muskets are inaccurate, and not just becuase most are smooth bore. But, and herein lies the problem, most folks equate smoothbore with them, and then your guilty by association.

There's a slug shooters forum, shotguns... the best known smooth bore. Slugs for them care capable of shooting 1MOA at a 100yards. Couple guys I hunt with shoot 12 ga. guns, and can routinely whack cans at a 100.

Smooth bore, yes! Muskets.... not so much......

There are two kinds of shotgun shooters who can claim 1MOA accuracy with slugs.

1. Those who use premium quality rifled slug barrels with attached telescopic sights...and

2. Liars

Just because it's mounted on a shotgun action doesn't mean it's a smootbore these days, at least not here in the U.S. Most pump action and several types of semi-autos have easily interchangable barrels. My old Mossberg swaps barrels in about ten seconds, without any tools needed.

I can shoot my 20 ga. Rifled barrel MOA.... at 25 yards. Nice clover leafs..... slugs are 2 bucks a shot though.....makes sighting in expensive and painful.....

Seriously, at my house, a 50 yard shot is a long one.

Questions,

Is a rifled shotgun an oxymoron?

Why do manufactures put little fins on slugs, does it really help? If so...Gary where are my finned slugs?

Is the max diameter of a shotgun slug determined by the tightest potential choke ie full so as not to blow out any barrel, thereby again leaving an ill fitting projectile for the cylinder bore slug gun. Jerry will tell us that very small diameter differences can make all the difference in whether a slug/gun combo is a nail driver.

What are the answers guys, do we need the myth busters help?

Kent

Good questions. I'm very interested in smoothbores and smoothbore projectiles... and right now I'm testing smoothbore in my recently modified samyang 909. I have put smooth caliber .469'' barrel it (mostly because of it's lenght, and am trying to find out what type of slug or what sort of single projectile could fly well from that barrel... must be stabilized somehow by the form of the projectile.

There are special slug shotguns today with completely rifled barrels, yet some have rifled chokes in them. Some companys in fact sell and change those rifled barrelsto ordinary smoothbore shotguns. But in my opinion, slugs in themselves should solve the puzzle and without any rifling...

Brenneken slugs are usually rifled or finned, but tere are foster slugss with fins too. Slug is finned as far as I have understood it, because of choked barrels so that the slug could exit barrel with fixed choke in it without the need of greatly undersized slug. Fins don't actually impart too much spinning, thoug some they may cause (it's still something for nothing type of thing).

Slugs are stabilized like shuttlecocks by putting ballistical centers in differening places... or they are like darts in this respect.

Gary knows much more of these things I think

I'd agree with the undertone of the questions: Personally, I think there's no such thing as a "rifled shotgun" .... no more than there are "bicycles with motors" ... "gliders with engines" ... etc.

I also have never been a fan of "the choke" for a rifle. Some swear by it ... I'm not much into "last minute ditch efforts to correct poor origonal design". For me ... a projectile fits the barrel, or it doesn't.

Shotgun slugs are mostly stabalized by "aerodynamic drag" ... my opinion. However, Kent ... I could design a paper fin set you could attach to your slugs if you like. Sort of like those tufted things you stick on turkey legs.

Gary

Or if it's just drag you want. Stick a piece of yarn to the end. Dory

Sorry for the late response Jerry, I won of course, I was the only one playing the game! I do a lot of shooting alone. I step out to the barn, open a door onto the big bore range and start firing. I do it as a break from other activities or to shoo the neighbors dog away from the skunk who is repeatedly spraying the mongrel.

It seems most people just don't get shooting these airgun things. I'll occasionally get someone who understands and appreciates the engineering and craftsmanship, then we'll shoot a round on the woods walk. When the rain goes away I'll shoot a round and post some pics for those not familiar with the walk. That will be a new thread..wooo hooo.

Kent