Hi Guys,

I'll let this up for a few days and move it into the "I was just sayin' " forum.

Some conversation, regarding upcoming projects.

I'm back into the Bison parts. These are some of the oldest orders. When techniques cross paths (such as when I've been set up for lathe threading of valves and intakes) ... I did some parts on Tundra parts as well. These are the next oldest batch. I've been doing these things, in the background, while finishing the Appaloosa stock.

Interesting experience this am. The sort of thing that happens occasionally. I got a phone call. It was a fella I've known for close to 30 years. He'd bought an "airgun" and wanted me to "see" it. Could he stop over. What did you get? He said a name I didn't recognize. Where did you get it? Bought it at a gun show. He had some questions about it. I said to stop over, I was in the shop working.

So, it's an antique butt reservoir gun. Nicely engraved. He asks me ... "how do I fill it with air?" I answer ... well, you'd need a special pump matched to the gun ... which should have been with it. Even if you had it, it would most likely be broken. The seals were usually leather, and fall apart. But, first ... those reservoirs are not safe to just fill with air. You'd need to have it hydro-tested, to make sure it's safe. Already ... the fun had gone out of the man's face.

Next ... he asked, "Does the barrel just thread off?" I answer ... I don't know ... probably. But the lingering silence seemed to indicate, I should do more. I just looked at the lock, and said I had no idea how it was made ... I wouldn't want to break anything.

My visitor, this morning, asked "then .. I can just leave it? You have time to take it apart?" I immediately say ... No. I have people all over the place waiting on my work for them.

So .. next question was ... "who could I take it to then, that works on these?" Again ... sorry, I don't know. That's a completely different part of airgunning than what I do. More awkwardness. I mention a fella I know of that had collected these guns .... but I don't personally know the fella. I say that, when I got into airguns, there were a few people that thought I should make myself available to fix their broken antique guns. They ended up pretty steamed at me because I had the gall to want to make my own guns. The unspoken message (sometimes outloud) was quite clear: THEY were giving me the chance to do something worthwhile, and I was gonna toss my skills away making my own junk. In all the years since, I've not apparently done anything worthy of them communicating with me.

I explained to the fella this am. That gun isn't an hour long project. It's a week long project. I wouldn't do enough work on it, for you to take it and blow your face off with it. It's 150 years old, if it's a day. It needs to have custom machine work done, to make a special fitting, in order to even pressurize it with oil, for testing. If it would hold to, perhaps 1,000 psi without damage, then you "might" feel you'd want to fill it to 500 psi to fire it. However; the things were made of sheet iron, wrapped, riveted, and brazed. We don't make things like that now ... because they are not safe. I've known of a few people taking the old guns and filling them, shooting them, but they evidently felt they'd take the chance. I won't. And won't do it for someone else, even if I had the time. If you made a fitting to fill it from SCUBA, you'd need a careful regulator. You couldn't hook it to 3,000 or 4,500 psi ... make a mistake, and you have a pipe bomb.

The fella left, expressing amazement that I was busy. There were about five or six of my guns sitting there in the rack, to be completed, or for service. He didn't seem to have time to look at them. I offered to try to find a contact for that one name I had. He said he'd google it.

It's an experience that's happened to me, quite a few times.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2009 04:14PM by barnespneumatic.

I can't believe you'd want to make your own "junk" when you could be waiting patiently to restore some found relic! Sorry, I meant antique treasure not relic. Besides, we want airgunning to be a high risk adventure. Yeesh, sometimes museum pieces just belong in the museum!

Has always been my experience (of course ... my experiences are sometimes unique to me) ... nonetheless; it's always been my experience that; people who are seriously "into antiques" couldn't really care less about the work of living craftsmen (unless they need something fixed). There's always been the attitude that "history" is where worthwhile things took place. "Today (and myself)" just seem so .... so .... "vulgar" by comparison.

People will beat the bushes for decades, to find some "missing link" of information some past character simply didn't record. Yet ... things like the contemporary day to day details of a full time artist ... no interest.

And so ... we stumble forward ....

Gary

Heheh . . . that's like you coming to me with a broken Babbage difference engine and me telling you I'm too busy setting some other guy's new laptop. Too funny.

-- Jim

I can relate...

The wife's experiences as a fine artist parallel Gary's. People dont understand that creating the art is but a portion of what has to happen to make money at it.

Personally, I could hardly run away far and fast enough from a project like that. It's got liability written ALL over it, in capital letters. Not just the legal liability (which is bad enough) but also the potential to damage your reputation and standing in the airgun community.

Just a few reasons:

Even if you did for some reason agree to restore it to original working condition, it would be a pretty weak sister performance-wise compared to your current work.

It's not fair to compare a relic made from "steel" that's probably little better than soft iron with what's available today, but people would do it anyway.

If it ever broke again, you'd be expected to fix it again, regardless of whatever design flaws or inherently faulty parts it came with.

There's no way you could charge enough for the time it would take to repair it to the point where it might be usable, it would certainly cost far more than the latest purchase price.

If you did a good enough job that YOU would feel comfortable with someone else filling and shooting it, it would pretty much amount to a total rebuild. The antique airgun crowd would feel justified skewering you for "ruining it's authenticity" by installing modern parts in safety-critical areas, no matter how hard you tried to make them conform appearance-wise. Lord Forbid you put in a safety relief valve or something non-authentic like that.

Worst of all, despite the current owners best intentions it would eventually be sold to someone else, who almost certainly WOULD fill it to overload with a scuba tank. Even if by some miracle nobody got maimed or killed, you'd be on the hook since you worked on it. If by yet another miracle they didn't get a lawyer, they'd still badmouth you on the internet and slander your reputation by implying that you built a "dangerous airgun".

It's hard to see any upside to a project like that, only potential disasters waiting to happen. And yes, I am a pessimist. In my line of work it's a necessary survival trait.

Wow ... you're a barrel of laughs! haha.

Yeah ... no fear ... it NEVER crossed my mind to jump into that tar pit!!!

However; that's exactly what I was expected to have done to "pay my dues" to the existing powers that "beed" at the time I entered the trade. Always found that extrodinary.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2009 12:01AM by barnespneumatic.

It's a no-win battle with the "authentic antique" crowd. Their ideal collectible airgun is always one that's never been fired, is in perfect condition despite it's age, and most importantly...was made by someone who's long dead.

That way there's NO chance that he'll ever make any more and upset their comfortable little apple cart as far as rarity goes. It doesn't matter if it never really worked reliably, couldn't hold air any better than a paper bag, or can't maintain "minute of barn door" accuracy.

I wouldn't own ANY firearm that's too "valuable" to shoot, for me there's no point. It'd be like buying a hammer and then never using it because you're afraid that you might put some dents on it's striking face.

You just need to introduce this antique collector to one of your "Where are they" crowd. They can trade guns whereby the antique will never be shot or seen again and the antique collector will have buried treasure that he can shoot!! I just live to bring people together and solve problems, comes from being a middle child.

Kent

Must be.

And ... being an only child, raised by wolves, didn't give me the sort of clarity that you have.

Gary

I still think that you should make the hole down the middle of the barrel an option.

If you charged twice as much for "full thickness" barrels with no bore, the safe-queen-only crowd would doubtless gladly pay the extra money to gain the cachet of having the "most exclusive model" of your work. You'd save a bunch of time too, since you could then also skip all those invisible and unnecessary time-suckers like valves, springs, sears, seals, etc. Once you got a "full thickness barrel" order, all you'd have to do is carve up a nice piece of fancy wood, slap on a bunch of engraving, and you're done in half the time!

You've got a winner there Neil. Keep me from freezing my buttstock off at the range, proofing and tuning too.



Gary

Gary,

I hope he didn't pay a lot for it, he could have had this modern marvel for $150. Doubles as a paper target holder:

According to the guy, he paid $3,500 for the incomplete antique of unknown capacity.

Gary

speaking of such things , i guess ive waited years now to say it , gary , what were you thinking ,no2 bullpup , oh dear ,, its as wrong as the savanah is right , now ill guess there are many who would argue the other way round . but , at last ive found the one of dozens of things you make i could strike off my wish list ,,, one down , just a few dozen more to narrow down now .
mind you , its good to see some of the older pics again too, some really nice blades , high contrast damascus is stunning
just for the record , i would say the bottom outside lock is the one gary made .
regards
tom



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2009 09:47PM by Dyson Diver.

Gee Tom,

I'm glad you've found your voice ... I think? haha.

Reciprocating barrel, spiral rotating loading port with automatic gull wing door, extruded anodized frame, hard color anodized finish, complex derailer in the trigger/sear train. I was pretty proud of it. Now, I'm all depressed. I'm just going to go out into the garden and eat worms.




Gary

big fat juicy ones , you , bite of the heads , suck out the juice , and ,,,,, throw away the skins.... was i right about the locks ,,,,, oops , after studying the pics closely , no , i was wrong , the top lock was yours . certainly did make a brand new antique there then .
t
oops , i re read , it was the nebula , not the savanah , i meant , it was as right looking as the other little uggly one , i even enlarged the pic , and it got worse , oh dear, mind you , if you could put a 90 adaptor on the buddy bottle , and lay it under the barel ,,, it would look like a super soaker , one of those huge water pistols.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2009 09:19PM by Dyson Diver.

Hey Tom,

You should stop editing. It's getting worse.

Throw the shovel up out of the hole ... and go home for dinner.

I think that "clamshell gun" was pretty stinkin cool....FWIW. : )