Will, for the time being; stay with the BPS Shop. It will be the test bed to show and demonstrate some of the many accessory configurations that I have invented to just thread onto the main Outrider Action. Invented, in spite of myself ....

What attachments?

Here are a few I've thought of. Yes ... they just thread on.........

1). Larger Diameter Reservoir.

2). Shrouded barrels of various Caliber. Possible would be ... 25, 32, 8mm, 34, 38 calibers

3). Girandoni type transverse box breech slide - with or without magazine tube parallel to barrel..

4). 3 Shot Harmonica Transverse Manual Magazine

5). Fire Thru Revolver Magazine (shielded)

6). Over and Under Barrels with Revolving or Elevator Selector.

7). And, of course ... Carbine Format ... shorter reservoir/barrel/most likely shrouded

8). Abbreviated Stock versions

All presented courtesy of the "back room" over the last few days.

All in good time. First things first.

Gary

Sounds like it is going to be interesting!

So, these are now all on the options grid?

Just kidding! Just kidding!

Hi Sean,

No - printed on the inside of my eyelids.

Hey ... has there ever been more of an orphan thread then this? Holy Cow (best I could do) ... I sat up til 2am solidifying my thoughts making sure I had solid versions of each of those on my mind's screen. They're not a bunch of new gun designs ... but attachments that just thread onto THE key Hub that I designed as the Outrider Series' Action. No modifications required. No drilling. Griz said it would be interesting. Appreciated. I'm crazy but I expected a bit more of a discussion.

I can't make anybody experience the things that happen to me. It's only by 60 years of seeing how other people work, that I know how rare my experience is. Over just a few days, while working on other work, I had each one of those listed items materialize in my mind's eye - 3D - as movable shop drawings .... Daydream like. Not some wierd trance. Just realized that I was envisioning a very complete unit. I know that's not normal. I was personally amazed, thrilled, dumbfounded, fascinated, unable to explain how it got there. At least I thought it was pretty unique. You know, today; you can't say you won without saying "we're all winners." So; it's hard to share special moments without being judged bragging. If I were already passed, and someone were pasting together shreds of stories relating this experience, it would be amazing. The more missing pieces, the more intriguing. But; being here, daily ... I often wonder if I could levitate, bend time, and have been born with the ledger already complete ... and .... "eh - what else ya got?" Haha.

I'm gonna have to try hard to beat that series. The wait, as regards me; is the unfinished pcs. - not new ideas. I realize that. But, I cant turn it off. I thought it should be interesting. Not sure though - 'cause to me ... if my work has some unique qualities ... then the processes which bring them to life should have significant interest to get it right. But; when I mention the methodology, it doesn't go anywhere. Guess we are supposed to have somebody guess (later) how it was done.

Anyway, I still have realities to deal with. We spent all day with medical stuff, Drs' Appt, test results, acquiring the missing Doc still needed, meds, pharmacies, phones, FAX ... The Docs know the run around their staffs, and themselves; try to sort out. Kelly's cell phone rang (in the car) all day - each time the medical center tried to FAX a document to a Provider, She'd pick it up and get a FAX tone on her cell Try to get small things like that straightened out. It took hours. Then, hours later .... her phone rings .... FAX tone. It's just life. You have it too. We are caught in the revolving door .... Kelly devotes half of each week to it. Does a great job too.

Just need to work like a 20 year old with a 60 year old experience. I'm still alive and heading to the shop.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2015 01:59AM by barnespneumatic.

No - it's not new. It's a double breech Bison action. It was going to be my Center Piece for a Major Show at least 8 -10 years ago. Never had time to finish it. Haven't since. But, you load each slide chamber and smartly snap it left to right. There is always one chamber open to load. Or, it could have a magazine tube feed.

Just thought I'd show it, as we have discussed repeaters some.

Gary

Hi Gary,

This Bison action is a masterpiece all by itself. It certainly is a conversation piece, even for persons not familiar with this hobby. What is the caliber for this Bison? Is this the final look of this piece?

It is very innovative in its design. Wow,!!

Thanks for sharing it with us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2015 04:34PM by Julio.

Thank you Julio,

Actually, this is the rough and heavy raw action. But it's functional. Now is the time to do a complex material removal milling series to
make it sleek, and reduce as much weight as possible.

The designs are magic sharpie - - just suggestions of that old camera case leather texture. I've carved it before. If I'd use it, it would be in recessed panels. The action could support higher detail. It's fine work. The breech block is very precise work. Snaps and indexes beautifully.

The caliber is .4515"

Thanks for asking.

Also - this one has a fatter reservoir diameter of 1 1/2".

Gary

I can't wait to see the new designes Gary, having a design that's so versatile makes for faster work while someone can piece together options making their rig more special. I'm not 100% sure but if you have not started my ledger item, the new Outrider options sound tempting.

Interesting Sal ....

I'd have to root around and check inventory charts to see what is what on the "historic" side ... but ... You have an interesting idea here.

Right off the bat I see these options that could transform your Outrider.

1). We decided to give you a Carbine Format with backyard power and shroud the barrel. BUT .... I am 87% sure that I left myself enough room in the internal porting and hammer/trigger power plant that ... IF you ever wanted to .... We could stretch the gun back into a Fire Breathing long range gun over 100 fpe ... STILL in 25 caliber.

2). With the existing action, I could go from long gun to carbine - and verify that it's correct ... In less then an hour. Could have long and/or short barrels. Shrouded or not. Ok - that's the obvious stuff.

Let me move to my keyboard and we can explore crazy. Give me half an hour. Sat down with a snack. Let me think. I can see some neat stuff .....

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2015 05:57AM by barnespneumatic.

Hi Sal,

OK - to allow for more options, I'd design the stock to have a forearm which is "under" the pressure tube. I've made designs like this in the past. Ah .... Some of the Tundras, The Nebula and Nebula 2, Ranger 2002 IIRC. In the current Outrider Stocks, I've wrapped the WOOD high on the pressure tube - essentially visually eliminating it. But ... I could make the pressure tube trough wide - still allowing for some recess .... even with the standard tube ... which would still look neat with a uniform void around it.

Now - I suspect the magazine stuff interests you a lot. Sky is the limit on it. It can be for convenience - or more dramatic - even for art/fashion/whimsy. There are different size wheels, of course holding varied numbers of pellets. The method of indexing would be to default to a manual "click" being detent positioned. There is no bolt. No cycle required with which to pair a wheel index.

Comment: Personally, I realize that I am probably alone in the avoidance of having a gun "Cock itself" during the breech loading cycle. I don't want the gun cocked until I want to take the shot. I don't care that you can build in a safety. I don't want the thing cocked. It's too easy to forget. Too easy to fiddle with something not realizing that you cocked it ten minutes or an hour ago. I assure readers that I am fully capable of designing a drag pin from bolt to hammer, a lever actuated shifter, a geared drive ... or a Warp Drive if the prize were worth it ... hahaha. But ... I still don't want the darned thing cocked until I am ready to shoot. I'll cock it then.

Now ... I've defaulted to the slide breech in recent years. Main reason is because it's all in front of the shooter. You forget to close it - all you get is a blast of air far removed from your face. You may need a change of shorts ... but you have your teeth. Now ... I've designed the Outrider to have it's slide breech out front ... BUT ... the systems I designed last week also reside out front.

Now ... it would only be "Clean" to have a slide breech barrel OR a barrel with no loading port or Chamber at all. The Wheel Magazine would thread into the receiver, and the barrel into the Wheel Mag.

NOTE: The possibilities are endless, However; that doesn't mean that every existing part will work with ever previous system's part. Therefore; if you want to use a magazine ... then you won't use your Slide Breech Barrel with the Magazine set up. Hummm ... Just thought of this ... I "Could" make the Slide Breech itself, into an optional Thread on Component ... NOT an integral part of the barrel. Interesting. That's how it develops.

A Harmonica Breech is a Transverse Sliding Block - chambers in it side by side (Like a harmonica). You bump/press it endways on detents - to align as many slugs as there are chambers. Now - with a two chamber slide ... you will always have one open, and the other aligned with the barrel. You can build so that a magazine tube is parallel to the barrel, and when the transverse slide is moved over, it picks up a ball or slug. That would not work as well with shrouded barrels - as it would require the tubes to be farther apart and require a wider "throw" for the magazine block.

These items can be made simply or with a quarky "Steam Era" look about them

Then ... there are even alternative methods I've seen floating by, which dress the action with side by side WOOD panels on either side of the action. I made prep. for this in my original design, and wasn't even sure why I did so ... but I just had to make it possible. Odd. It's like making sure that you COULD put in a wired Surround Sound System by running the cables while remodeling the room ... even though NOW the room is going to be used for a home office.

Oh ... power adjust. I did the same thing. I have a default system that can be tweaked with different hammer, spring, guide kits.

There are so many things that can be done. Only thing I reserved was the Big Big calibers and Power. Along with the Highest degrees of refinement. Those are the ones that are well beyond what anybody needs and almost nobody says they want. But - those are the ones that are gonna have the best lighting and the most detailed engraved plaques inside the glass - later on.

Interesting idea Sal.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2015 06:04AM by barnespneumatic.

I can almost feel the wheels and cog up there in your head building up speed

My head is spinning! I'm going to have to read your post a few more times to absorb it all. Working at a large commercial printer today, lots of large, noisy machines in here.

When I posted last night I don't think I was as clear as I could have been. What I was trying to say is that instead of starting my ledger item as I had originally submitted (if you have not already made progress on it, I don't want you to start from scratch) build my ledger item as an Outrider (when the time comes). I was saying this because of the myriad of options it could truly come out as a second gun that was unique compared to outrider #5 that you are currently working on for me. I think my last post came out as if I wanted to combine the projects, I'm very sorry if I mislead you, it was not my intention.

Very exiting stuff looks to be down the Outrider road. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't wait to see what's coming in the future.

We can sort it out Sal. As I get more in order here, I'm getting faster. This was a job for 10 people. I had one older me. But it's still coming along. Believe me - I'm not going to press any hasty decisions.

I'm assembling one gun now, and recording additional data and making drawings of small parts.

Wear ear plugs. I'm a professional now.

Gary

Very interesting idea's. Nice to see you back at it.

Gary,

The ideas are all great!
It's making me think of what modifications I'm going to need......
But I'll wait until you get well in to ledger items. I don't want anyone to get upset with me.

Scott

There are three guys here now Scott. They are bigger then me and all named Vinny ....

Haha.

ASAP
Gary

Hi Gary,

Weren't the Bisons supposed to be muzzle loaders? This Bison action is a break through for the model. Just a thought.

Hello Julio,

It was to be a big Splash at a Show 8-10 years ago. It will be an exceptionally fine pc. no matter when I finish it. I'm fond of it.. Could just never get back to it. There are a couple/few other guns in the shop in the same state. Unique designs I hadn't made before. Nearly completed but could never steal the hours to complete them. I think it will "only" take so many hours, and then that quickly doubles. I'm not one of those contractors that gets paid for overruns. hahah. So; it's back to work and the project gets shelved.

That is something that I think "may" be fun with the Outriders. Should be possible to make an accessory and plug it onto/into an existing rifle in the field.

I just have waaaaaaayy too many ideas for the hours and years I have. Kills me .... I engrave a couple of times a year. You take a look at that fine Touring Case you have - and that's the level I've gotten to doing it a couple/few times a year. If I had done that all week for 20 years, I might be better. hahah.

Hope you are good Julio. Always good to read your comments.

Gary

(I have three grandsons visiting for a week while their parents are away!) Heaven help us! hahaha

"(I have three grandsons visiting for a week while their parents are away!) Heaven help us! hahaha"

There's the solution to your "too many ideas, not enough time" problem! Just draft all your grandkids into the Barnes Airgunsmith Apprentice /Intern Program. Call it a work/study homeschooling program, or a sort of a summer camp that runs all year, it IS Florida after all.

Sure, the first couple years will be difficult, but once they get used to the gruel and sleeping on straw pallets in the tractor barn your productivity will soar.

I can't find any flaw in your logic, Sean.

Thanks!!

You're welcome.

Hey, a hundred fifty years ago it would have been expected, just the way everyone did business. You'd have been doing them a favor, teaching them a skilled trade the right way by hands on experience, building character, etc.

For your big bore, which are only 2 shot. Could you use bolt action and 2 shot magazine? Dory



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2015 09:56PM by Dory.

Hi Dory,

Just about all of the big guns are at least three shots. Yes, magazines could be made. Manual index or mechanical index. Various questions arise. 1). Is it worth the cost of the labor and build. 2). Does it save anything, since it only takes a second to drop a slug into a retracted bolt slot.

The small caliber guns with magazines also usually have the gun cock upon retracting the bolt. Personally, I hate that. Last thing I want is to have the gun cocked by default. Right - you can then also add a safety. Then; you've added a magazine, engineered it so that it indexes when the bolt retracts, you have the gun loaded, inner connected the bolt and hammer so it's automatically cocked, and you are counting upon an added slide detent or some such easily bumped safety to make the gun safe. All to save the huge effort of dropping a slug into the loading port. Somebody explain it to me again. . I'm listening.

But ... I've made a clip fed full auto air cane, so anything is possible. Discussion is fun.

Gary

I know - mixed signals. I can design them. Make them. I involuntarily designed a set of them for the Outrider Series ... But my honesty is a kill joy when I honestly say I don't see the "need". Guess so long as you understand it's like the chrome big block - not necessary. So; none of those accessories will be cheap. Has to be interesting to me too, because staying up Saturday evening to get that magazine to index perfectly ... then never seeing a pic of it again ... Bummer.

I think the side-slider "harmonica-style" magazine/loading port that you showed on that "double bison" frame has a lot to recommend it, especially for a big-bore field or hunting rifle.

If you load one chamber and keep one empty, it's easy to ensure the rifle is safe even when the hammer is cocked. Just keep the empty chamber in-line with the bore until your shot is ready, then slide the loaded chamber over and shoot. It's sort of like the old single-action Colt pistols before they added all the safety features, the one way you could keep it safe for sure was to keep an empty chamber under the hammer. It also looks very easy to unload the rifle if you decide not to shoot the slug that's loaded. That feature in itself is an advantage over the sliding breech design, which has to be either fired to unload or cleared with a rod through the muzzle after manually lowering the hammer. Of course, that's also true of virtually every single-shot airgun whether big-bore or small, it's not like pellets/airgun slugs have an extractor groove cast in them somewhere.

It'll be interesting to see how it works in practice when you eventually complete that design. It might need a front plate or cover of some type to keep from loading the slugs too far forward, or keep them from slipping out under recoil. If they stick out even a bit too far (front or back) they'll shave lead off the slugs when you snap the loading port over. It'd be like trying to close the cylinder on a revolver with bullets that are loaded just a tad too long.

Thanks Sean.

Ill be back on this. But - for now ... Know that you can't load them too deep. There is an internal stop. And - they are held in place, by bullet lube. Sticky grease type that I used in the very first airguns I built.

Yes - you could unload the chambers.

It's very neat. But - realize it comes at considerable work/cost.

Thanks.



Gary

It doubtless adds a considerable extra level of complexity, especially seeing as it's one of the welded receiver types where the possibility for days worth of minor-mistake/major-rework is always looming.

I'm trying to imagine how you achieve the tight seal necessary to get best performance given that kind of pressure. Is there a pair of o-rings buried in the receiver that the block glides against, or is it a super-tight interference fit?

Of course, this might fall under the "secret prototype innards" clause.

This falls under the ..... After endless people ask for 17 years ... You try one. Having already explained the physics of revolvers and slide breeches - it's gonna function according to the laws governing all such devices, better then some.