I believe we should match the bullet to the game we hunt with just like in firearms. For instance, a bigbore hunter has lost a big deer at 75 yards with a lungs shot by using a gun that shoot a .50 round ball with 180 fpe. The ballistic for the round ball is one of the worse, and at 75 yards, the remaining energy is only around 100 fpe. That's hardly enough to ensure a clean kill on a big deer. I know 180 fpe is low, but had he known and would have used the 250 gr conical bullet he would have had a better result. The heavier conical bullet retain the energy much better, at 75 yards it would only lost about 35 fpe, and the S.D is also much higher for deeper penetration, he would have had a better chance.

With firearms, the ideal bullet is to mushroom and spent most of its energy inside an animal and exit. For bigger, and tougher games, they use a tougher bullet such as the Nosler Partition for expansion and deep penetration. For bigbores with 500 fpe, we can use the same idea, with a .45 for deer and similar game size, we can use a good hollow point to maximize the damage and dump most of its energy inside an animal and exit for a quicker and clean kill.
For bigger and tougher games, 700 lbs on up, we should use the tougher .45 solid and bigger caliber bullets such as the .58 on up for deep penetration and break heavy bones. Since the .58 and bigger caliber slug wound channel is already big, expansion is not as critical. I believe the .58 and bigger is a better choice for really big games. The shock, and the killing power of the really big slug is much, much better.

The bigbores have proven to be very effective on biggames at close range, however, by selecting, and matching the right projectiles and caliber to the games we hunt with, we can even ensure a better and successful hunt. What do you think guys? any opinion is welcome!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2010 12:27AM by peter-n.

Those are some good points Peter. I can't find any problem with your logic or facts.



Gary

To paraphrase the realtors Placement, Placement, Placement. Having said the obvious, it is nice to have a little leeway, cause you can't always hit'em "Cenner of the Nek"

One thing that I've noticed and Gary can affirm, it seems that because a fair number of the slugs are found just under the off side hide, there is no exit hole to leave a massive blood trail. When this happens, often, it makes trailing challenging, even with solid double lung hits and the prey only going 100 ids. It also means that the blood trail may be very scant at the site of the hit. This is in contrast to a massive blasting of tissue at ground zero with a firearm, or even a bloody arrow that reveals what kind of hit was made. On more than one occasion there is a lock of hair at ground zero that can give clues as to the hit. One advantage, especially over the black powder guns is that you can hear the hit and without the cloud of smoke see the animals initial direction.

In conclusion, no matter how much energy that next heavier slug will produce, if it doesn't allow for the most accurate shot then go with the lighter slug or even the ball.

Just what I've noticed.

Kent

Now Kent,

That "Cenner of the Nek" .... is that from the side, or from the front? I sort of forget the seminar on that we recieved.

Now, I never thought to ask ... if I were in a tree stand, directly above the deer ... what would you suggest ... ???

Gary

Good point there Kent! Ofcourse, accuracy is very important, and it should be the number one priority, then power. However, at such close range 75 yards or less, I think around 2 to 3 inch group should be sufficient for biggames.

well, my 2 cents is this. 100 FPE would have been enough if the shot hit the brains. To puncture the lungs will result in death for sure. But, that animal might run pretty far before it expires (a mile or 2). Being 30 yrds away with a lung shot using RB's probably would have produced the same results. The roundball has the energy......it just doesn't DESTROY tissue like some of the other bullets do. If i were using roundball at that distance, i would have gone for a headshot and nothing else.

Again, i think Roundballs are so under rated. But that's just me. If it will penetrate the vitals (brain or lung) it will kill. A deflated lung means death. The pioneer always only used Roundballs cause thats all the design they had until conicals came about. But RB's were successful back then because of shot placement.

So yes, a conical would have been a better choice for that shot but, he used RB's and i would have choose the brain and death would have been instant.

Ced,

I've also seen articles (from Sam Fadala - noted black powder writer) where he tested the penetration of RB, and found it to be suprising. I think Jerry and I also did that with the balistic jell. But, Peter's point of retained energy was a good one. For any distance at all, the RB sheds energy fast (as would any lighter slug) ... but the bigger slug just keeps on chugging along and thus retains more energy, for the same gun.

Gary

Hey Tofazfou, how you doing? You're right, brain shot would have killed anything with the ball. And I know, if the round ball had enough energy it would killed anything that walks. Infact, I like them myself, it's just that they shed energy rapidly downrange. Good to hear from you!

I'm good Peter. How are you doin?

The other point that i did not mention is....if the Deer or Hog was gonna be mounted. If so, then you don't wanna destroy the head.

I really should do some energy comparisons on RB out to lets say 100 yrds. I would love to know exactly how much energy they do shred. Hmmmmmm, gives me an idea.

Peter,

Kent likes to "CORE" his game with the 87 slug. The night he got his Bobcat, he came to retrieve me in the electric Bad Boy Buggy, and just told me he'd shot a small one. I figured it was a smallish doe. We got to the site, and there was the most magnificant Bobcat!!! Examining the cat - there seemed to be an 87 caliber void in the animal. And, honest to George, there was a long sausage of Bobcat laying out on the ground behind where it was shot! Amazing.

I think that would be worth another pic of the beast. I'll post on in Hunting - if I don't forget to go find it.

Gary

Yeah ... you need to do HIGH SPEED VIDEO of your comparisons ....

LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL....i think i know what that means Gary.

Gary, a long sausage blew out from the bobcat? he..he..That sounds pretty deadly from the .87 bore!

Tofazfou, I'm doing good Bro! I really admire you for modding your own guns. I wish I knew how......Well, one day I'm going to learn how and mess with it. I think it should be a lot of fun!


For readers wants to know the ballistic comparison of the round ball versus the conical, here is the result from the Black powder hunting book by Toby Bridges:
A .50 round ball fired from a Thomson Center at 2135 fps with 1772 fpe at the muzzle, at 100 yards the remaining energy is 575 fpe.
a .50 conical 370 gr Maxiball fired at the muzzle, 1525 fps with 1900 fpe, at 100 yards the remaining energy is 1300 fpe. That's a big difference!!

However, at lower airgun velocity, both the round ball and the conical retain better fpe down range, but the conical still retain the energy a lot better than the round ball.

The rounball does have one advantage over the heavy conical, that is the flatter trajectory due to a higher velocity, and at 50 yards and under, it's still a lethal killer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2010 10:12PM by peter-n.

Well - I don't have it in me to type it all again. I hit that STUPID!!!!! set of key strokes that 1). selected the whold STUPID page I'd just typed. 2). Wiped out the whole STUPID page. 3). Turned off the Rendezvous AND Internet Explorer!!! What MORON made that possible while you are just typing along?

Anyway. In short terms: My slugs are always much heavier per caliber ... than BP and firearms people think are "heavy". Was a great, thorough post ... sorry

Gary

Yeah I can relate to you Gary. It happened to me sometimes too, and after a long post, very annoying he..he..

WOW....now that is some energy shedding. That RB almost comes to a stop at that distance....lol compared to a conical.

Learned my lesson for the day. Thanx peter, thats good info.

No problem Tofaz. I've been reading from the forum for years, and still learn something new everytime. That's why the forum is such a good place to learn from one another. I learned how to mod the gun for more power from your post and you learned about the round ball ballistic, good trade huh? he..he..

Excellent. You've had some good posts lately Peter. Thanks.

Gary