Ok, I'm new to the world of big bore airguns and airguns in general. So I have a question that might seem intuitive to you "ol boys".

When hunting, and using a super sonic powder burner you don't have to worry about the sound reaching and spooking a critter you're shooting at because by the time the sound gets there the projectile has been there, done it's thing and is gone. But when you shoot a projectile at less than the speed of sound there is a short (depends on difference between the speed of sound and the speed of projectile (which isn't just the speed at the muzzle like most people measure, it slows as it goes so the difference between the speed of sound and the speed of projectile increases the longer the shot)) period of time when the sound reaches the target and the projectile isn't there yet.

My question is, on longer shots have any of you had any issues with the prey spooking, flinching, or anything like that? If you're shooting at 25 yards, it would be so fast it wouldn't matter, but on a longer shot (Like the 100 plus yard shot Gary put on a boar, and I've heard of 130 yard shots on coyotes) could this become and issue in reality, I know theory and reality butt heads a lot, which is why I'm asking this question. I'm not figuring that the prey would hear the sound and then consiously move, but more of a loud sound flinch/turn to see kind of thing which could make where you're aiming at be a slightly different point on the animal. Is this worth discussing or is this too much of a theoretical issue until you get out to a point at which you prudently shouldn't be taking a shot?

Basic numbers :
110 yard shot at 800fps (assume this speed for the duration of the flight) takes 0.4125 of a second
110 yards for sound takes 0.293 of a second
325 fps (the difference between the speed of sound and the speed of projectile) is roughly 28.9%
28.9% of 0.4125 of a second is 0.119 of a second
so, just under 1/8 of a second (not figuring for the speed of the projectile decreasing along it path). Like I said, I'm not figuring on an intelligent thought process, just a flinch or twist due to a loud noise. Is the noise quiet enough due to the distance? Is it diffused enough due to distance?

If my math is wrong, please let me know, and if this is a theoretical question that has no bearing in the real world, please speak up. My brother always told me that

"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, in practice there is."

And I agree.

Thanks for your input,

Griffin

I answered a post on this question before on another forum. According to a neurolgist( I did a resarch on it) the animal wouldn't have enough time for its brain to register a sound with a projectile at 600 fps and above to react and move away at 100 yards and under( maybe the most at 1 or 2 inch) With bow and arrow and 300fps and less it is, it can "jump the string" But then again, that's according to a neurologist , I'm not sure. However, we have never heard of an animal ducking away from the bigbores.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2010 09:56AM by peter-n.

Griffin,

I understand your question. It's a good one. Don't ever worry about that.

I've not seen it become a problem. I'm hardly the last word on hunting with big bore. Hardly. But ... let's see. I hit a boar (trotting at 109 yards ... miracle shot) with 45 Tundra. I shot a boar @ 90 yards with Ranger Delta 45. Shot one trotting at 50 yards with Yukon 58. Buffalo standing at 50 yards with Yukon II in 58 caliber. Deer standing at 30 yards with Carnivore. Deer walking (with Justice 87 smoothy) @ 50 yards. Fox standing at 60 yards with Rendezvous Grey Fox 45. Was never aware of any "hang time" ... no reaction prior to the strike.

Gary

Thanks guys, I've seen enough videos of shots being taken where it doesn't seem to be an issue, but I just thought I'd ask.

This is what happens if my mind doesn't have an outlet, it comes up with random things to ponder. I need to get back to work (not laid off, just slow)

You question is a good one bro. I know the other guys answered your question but i too have often thought (i honestly knew the answer) about how fast a big bore bullet is at 100+ yrds. And let me tell you, THERE FAST. Too FAST for anything to move.

Now, before i say what i'm gonna say, i don't want folks to get mad at me and think that i am irresponsible and or crazy (well i am crazy) but, i set up a water bottle at 150 yrds away and had my buddy shoot it. But, i was downrange with the bottle and behind a tree 20 yrds away and to the right of the bottle. No way the bullet could have penetrated the tree but, upon the shot and at that distance, you can hear the muzzle report 1st, and then in a MICROSECOND later the bullet impacts the bottle. Now, i was aware that my buddy was gonna shoot but i did not know when, even then, it happened so fast that there is no possible way any animal could move or duck. The sound and impact at that distance are ALMOST INSTANEOUS. And, the other thing that hinders and animal from moving is the fact that they are UNAWARE that we are hunting them and about to shoot them. So that further slows down their reaction time.

I just did a video of me shooting a milk jug at 200 yard. I had one camera near me and the muzzle and the other camera right next to the jugs. The sound of the muzzle report and impact at the jug is just soooooooo fast even though those bullets are travelling slow as compared to a powderburner.

Do you wanna see the video? I will post it if you want me to so you can hear the muzzle report and see the impact.

Sure thing. Please, please.

Gary

This is the second camera view to the 2 bottles that i recently did a video on. THIS camera and bottles are approximately 201 yards away from me and the guns muzzle. These bullets should be around 780+ fps at the muzzle.

Please exuse the sound quality of the camera but it is only a small point and shoot camera. And yes, it was pretty windy out when i did this shoot. You can hear the wind in the MIC.

Well, you'd of had me! I can't move that fast! haha.

Thanks for posting.

Now ... where are all those new Casio pics? haha.

Gary

Thanks Tofazfou, I appreciate it. Actually, I appreciate all (maybe most ) of the videos you do. This is a perfect example of why they're so helpful.

And this makes one of the points of my questions and destroys another. It's super quick between the report and the impact, but more importantly is how diffused the report is at that distance. You can hear it, but it's not anywhere near as loud as in the videos you take from next to your gun. In fact, I just listened again and it's not much louder than the gusts of air the mic is picking up. When you listen from the gun side the timing from report and impact sounds like a lifetime, but from the target end it really is quick. And 200 yards is a longer shot than I'd take at something other than paper.

Thanks Tofazfou, great example.

lol....playing with my Casio right now as we speak. Doing some test photos, videos, and settings. Gotta get it right.

And yeah, when i went outside right now to shoot some video, the picture brightened up nicely. It was just the fact that inside it simply to dark or its the florescent light bulbs.

Were the ceiling fan blades wicker or palm shaped? That can make a difference ... hahah.

Sorry.

Yeah ... I loaded up to go over to the range for a short session. Got there and it appeared nobody had been in the dirt road ... for centuries. Virgin snow. So, I 4WD on in ... and the field is half snow, and the rest mud swamp - with a stream running thru it where none was before. I just turned around and came home.

So, I decided to set up and shoot here in the office. But, I can only get about 75 yards in here. hahha. Or ... I mean 7.5mm Guess I need to start making smaller guns, or buy a nice large ranch. hummm. Smaller guns it is. haha.

I enjoyed doing a bit of squirrel hunting with the Casio. Works real well. I'll enjoy that in the Spring. We have bunches of Red Tailed Hawks around this area. They are territorial ... so you can usually know where to find them.

Enjoy the camera warm up phase. We're expecting nothing but the best! You have big shoes to fill from your previous films.

Gary

Ced,

Since you have at least three video cameras now, we're all going to expect at least three views of every hunt, target and bottle you shoot! We'll be with you every step of the way as you become an accomplished producer of airgun films destined for the big screen. We're going to help out with lots of tips on how you can make the next production even better than the last!

LOL, niiiiiice. I appreciate that.

This casio shoots good HD video. It pretty clear and i love it. The slow mo is cool but the HD is awesome looking. really clear.

Thanks for the video, it was interesting to see how little time really elapses between the shots sound and the slugs arrival. Even considering that many animals have lightning-fast reflexes compared to mankind, that's not much time to work with. The other factor is that even if an animal DID startle at the report, the initial response would almost always be to look towards the sound and freeze until they figure what's up. I've seen several videos of deer standing stock-still while a hunter misses several shots in a row, sometimes shots that hit VERY close by.

Griffin,

your welcomed bro. Its funny cause i usually hunt with either 1 of my buddies or 2 of them. 1 of my friends has a Rapid only and the other owns a Beaumont .25 and Jack Haley 32 and both of those are cannons. But i tell you, when you are out in the desert maybe 500 yards or so apart, you here such a faint POP that even though i know its my buddy nailing a Jack Rabbit, the average person would never know what that FAINT pop was. But if my buddy was to shoot my 17 hmr or something like that, the CRACK is distinct. The report of HPA although loud at the muzzle, and the lack of SONIC CRACK with the projectile just seems to fade away a little differently than a powder burners report does. At least that is what my friend and i come up with. Just cause we hear each others guns in the distance and we talk about it all the time.

But my buddy with the Rapid, you cant hear that thing go off in the distance at all. Especially if he is shooting 100 yrds+ away from me. I've stood 120 yrds downrange from his muzzle (no, not in line with his muzzle...lol) and his gun is near silent at that distance. The pellet whizzing by is louder at that distance than his muzzle report is.