From left to right, 20 guage #4 buckshot, Brenneke 1 1/4oz 12 guage slug, 20 guage Dangerous Game 1oz slug, .50 Maxiball 370gr, and a .22 pellet for comparison. The 12 and 20 guage slugs dwarfed the smaller .50 slug. I beleive they provide far better knock down/killing power for taking large game up to 2000 lbs than the smaller caliber due to their weight and large diameter slug. I'm working on getting a 12 guage gun made. I really love these ultrabore guns.

Peter,

Are you shooting all of those out of airguns?

Lon

Lon,

Yes, the shotgun slugs are made for smoothbore, but you can also shoot it out of the rifled barrel gun. The only thing is these slugs are very hard(you lose some velocity but excellent for penetration), and you would also need to sized them down. The slug can snap out of the bottom plastic sabot so you can size it then snap it back on. The sabot provide a good seal and supposed to stabilize the slug during flight. I ordered them from Ballistic Product Inc. I don't have the 12 guage bigbore gun yet. I'm working on to get one made doesn't matter how tough or how much it would cost. I've been wanting one for a long time.

Peter, those are some serious slugs you have there! Keen to see some results in some unfortunate prey!!
Cheers
Neil

Yeah Neil, after I get my 12 guage bigbore with about 750 fpe, I would go to Africa and take down the big 5......no just kidding he...he..too much money and besides it's not legal. I'm sure it could be done with the gun generating that much power and shooting the "cannon" size slug, and provided that one use the hard cast slug and with the PH backing you up. It's been done with the low powered archery! And if you believe in the Taylor's knock out formula(the formula has been respected by biggame hunter for years), the 12 guage 750fpe has a higer value at 50 than the 4500fpe .375 H&H Magnum at 42. The KO value for Gary's .87 Dragon is even at much higher at 80! Just for the comparison the 30.06 has a value of only 21. It seems the larger the caliber and the heavier it is the higher the value. Now I don't know about those numbers but I know the much bigger and heavier slugs do kill better than the smaller slugs. You can go to to[beartoothbullets.com] and see the formulas and the lethalness of the large caliber bore, it's very interesting The large game such as the America bison and moose from Canada is more likely for my future hunt. It's my dream to hunt them with the ultrabore, and I will make sure that I will do it in the future.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2010 08:24AM by peter-n.

Hi Peter,I built a 12 bore pcp some time ago by useing a smoothy barrel.I made a rifleing button and pulled it through to create the pitch I wanted which was about 44'' by memory.It ran a 600cc tank(which I think is about 35 cu'')and could put out a 760gn hollow bum slug at 850 fps or a 870gn slug at around 790fps.Despite its retro construction I could put three shots off the same fill into a two inch group at 100 yards if I held over a little on the third shot.Shots 5 and 6 were for finnishing in close only.I used the slideing breach design which is Ideal for the ultra bores and safer than a bolt unless you build in a safety devise so the bolt can only be opened if the hammer is forward and vice versa which is what I have on my .30 cal.It was such a blast to shoot apart from the cuts I got above my right eye from the scope and the air it used (lots of it).We don't have 4500psi tanks in NZ so I decided after Haven some fun with the 12 bore to barrel it back to .60 cal which is as big as we need in NZ as the biggest game we have here are red dear.But hey, lots of fun(lots of lead)and "wow" the power.Good luck to you Peter you'l enjoy it when it comes.

Hello Danny,

Wow ... with something as special as that, I know you must have taken a ton of pictures. We'd love to see the gun and targets.

Absolutely amazing accuracy, and those velocities ... Incredible. I don't think I could get all that lead, to those velocities, thru a 12 bore. You said you don't have 4,500 psi tanks. What psi were you managing all of this from?

Gary

I'm with you Gary. Pictures would be awesome.

Sounds incredible Danny

Hi Garry, Peter ,I did'nt take any photo's of the gun when it was in 12 bore format but still have all the bits and of course the .60 cal which is what it became,I'll take some photo's and post when my partner comes back from holiday with the camera.I should point out the ballistics I posted were with the main spring wound right up and was only good for one shot that left a cut above my right eye despite moving the scope as far foreward as I could get it and lengthening the but a little.When tuned for hunting the 760gn slug left the barrel at 812fps and was a lot more workable giveing three good shots.I had the 670gn ball going 910fps with the gun wound right up but could never seem to get it to group consistently at any tune (possibly the pitch).Garry I was testing a different kind of valve with this gun and it seemed to suit the ultra bore down to the ground.I had absolutely no trouble getting these ballistics and could have got more out of the beast with some mods but for what use.In my view a hunting gun should have at least two good shots and a follow up shot to be sure you can finnish the job.The barrel was 30''( of rifleing) and the gun opperated on a 2800 psi fill.I would have had a go at building the gun to opperate on a 3500psi-4000psi fill but that would meen topping off with a hand pump like I do with my .30cal.I used the 12 bore on the goats once and to put it lightly,it was overkill.Happy hunting to all Danny.

Hi Danny!

Your 12 guage sounds very impressive and interesting, especially it only used the standard 2800psi fill and the 30in barrel and still generated that much power. Over here in the States, we are the power "freak" and love to read and learn as much infos as possible about any new super powerful bigbores. I've always enjoyed your posts, I can almost build a bigbore just by reading yours he..he.... Thanks Danny for the infos!

Griffin, Peter, and All,

"Redundant Safety Factors". That's why I don't do it. If you are going to run something at nearly 6,000 psi, then I'd want to see tests of 25,000 psi to 30,000 psi. What happens when something fatigues, or becomes a bit loose over time and usage?

I suspect these guys are far more skilled in engineering and fabrication that I am.

Here's a couple of reasons why I don't push the limits.





I don't know where my guns will travel, who will shoot them, or who will maintain them. The specs. I show, in photos, documentation, and public events ... are very, very easy for those models to perform in a safe and reliable manner.

Gary

Hello Danny,

Just clarifying your two posts, for myself.

35 cubic inches of 2,800 psi reservoir. 30 inch barrel. Your first post said three full power shots (over 1,200 foot pounds) and two more lesser shots for a total of 5 shots. After tuning it down ... you got three shots - still over 1,100 foot pounds? I'm not sure how you sensed the difference between 1,100 foot pounds and 1,200 foot pounds at the shoulder ... to conclude that it was a lot more "workable". Incredible. Especially the 1,230 foot pounds with round ball. And, it wasn't even breathing hard, and had a lot more performance to give ... but you didn't bother.

I'm simply amazed. Man ... I can't imagine doing something like that and not taking at least one picture. I'd have taken a thousand. I have a camera in my pocket at all times. I actually saw digital cameras in Walmart the other day, for $10. You really need to toss one in your shooting kit!

Well, that's the most amazing story I've heard to date. Thanks. Stay safe.

Gary

Danny,

A quick question, did you mis-read the weight of the ball? A 12ga ball is 583gr (7000/12)...

Hi Jerry,Garry and all.Jerry you are right about the weight of the 12 guage ball,however shot gun barrels vary a lot in size even at the chamber.The barrel I used was a loose one to start with and by the time I kleened it up and pulled the button through it the ID OA was .764''.which to be accurate is about a 10.44 guage.I had to make a ball mould which was my first ball mould and I got it within .003'' of round.Garry to clarify,at full noise the gun was only capable of one good shot.Tuned back a bit it was capable of three good shots,two full power and one a bit slower with a couple or so shots that were only good for finnishing up close.I could have got more power by simply uping the fill preasure and main spring, but still only get one shot which is no good to me as a hunter. I can see that I am going to have to rebuild the beast to prove a point,or build a new one and push the boundary's as far as I can at 3200psi(hand pumping is such a chore).Cheers to all Danny.

Good Lord Danny, your 12 guage has put out over 1200fpe! That is very impressive! Now what was the psi again? Was the barrel 44 inches? Good job Danny, too bad you don't have anything really large to hunt with that gun. You can always come to America and take down the 2000lbs bison. And it's legal in a private hunting ranch. Thanks for the infos!

Gary, there was a guy on another forum by the name of Jerod said that his .457 could take up to 5000 psi, and at 4300psi using the 344gr bullet, he got 867 fpe(roughly 1050 fps) for the first shot, and got 4 full powered shots from it. He tuned the gun. It has a 40 in long barrel and long airtube, and is heavy at 12lbs. So, with the high psi charged it may be possible if his claim was true. And that is a .45, imagine if it had a 12 guage barrel or bigger on it. The gun is long and heavy at 12lbs, but it's worth it if it could put out that much power.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2010 11:35PM by peter-n.

Peter (and all)

Jerod's gun is a VERY modified Haley .457 and his operating pressure is 5700 psi. I know that sounds bonkers, but that's what he claims and Jack Haley is on that forum a lot and hasn't ever said otherwise. Here's a link to a thread about it

[www.network54.com]-

Not that I want to direct anyone away from here, but here's what's being said about this gun. I will warn you that his posts are a bit difficult to read but tend to be amusing (to me) for this reason.

Gary, is there any reason you've never pushed the pressure limits like this? I realize it adds to the potential for danger and that to get fill pressures that high would be more difficult than getting 3000# fills, but your guns aren't exactly run of the mill to begin with.

Thanks Gary, interesting thread Peter

I know Jerod and Jack Haley build the Jack Hammer to take very high operating psi pressure. The stock JackHammer put out about 500fpe plus. Jerod tuned it to make a monster out of it. It's very interesting because it's probably has never been done before at such high pressure. Back then we only have the 3200 psi tank, but now 4500 psi scba tanks are common, if we can build the guns to safely take the pressure I think we will explore their limit. But I'm not an expert at it, only Gary is, he has a wealth of experience with it and only him can provide the answers if it was safe or not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2010 02:00AM by peter-n.

I'd love to see some pictures of the 5700psi gun torn down. I can only guess at what differences there are from the other guns of that type that I have seen apart... 5700 is a lot of psi, I sure hope that gun has been tested in a hydraulic chamber.

I imagine that if you wait long enough, someone will actually try to duplicate some of the "taller tales" that you read about 6000psi homemade bigbores and such on some of the airgun forums. Some of the folks on this forum will probably read about it in a variety of reliable professional sources.

For example, the Journal of Emergency Medicine.

You're right Gary, all the power in the world is not worth it for one single mishap with the extreme high pressure.

Hi Peter,
you can try with your 20 gauge the Sauvestre sabbot .
It makes the best accuracy with 20 (16,12) gauge shotguns up to 150yrds.
With regards,
Alex



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 06:32PM by alex.

That's a pretty neat looking projectile. I wonder if it would be possible to load it in two stages, since the length would give problems loading through most loading ports. How does it fit into a regular gunpowder shotgun hull, for that matter?

No one problem, Rotor. I use it with semi-auto Remington 20 gauge.I'll send the pic I'll cut the one shell.
Alex.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2010 10:50PM by alex.

That's a picture. I've cut it into pieces.
Enjoy yourself.
Alex.

Hi Alex,

Thanks. That's dedication to sacrifice a shell like that for a pic. We appreciate it. Looks like a very interesting projectile. That's a bunch of manufacturing committment to all the tooling for those componets. The molding dies and such. Very neat.

Gary

Pretty cool looking slug Alex. It looks like it could fly true in a smoothbore. Thanks for the picture!

I just did a bit of "Googling" on them. Evidently they are very difficult to get in the States (unless I was reading old postings) ... and they were $5 per shot for the old inventory the guys had. They are French, if I understood correctly. Very neat product.

A comment on a forum said a 20 ga. would penetrate 2" of steel at 50 yards with them, due to the embedded steel rod. I suspect that's possible, due to the report I had once from a customer who had embedded a tungsten rod in his 87 Justice slugs. It would punch steel too (not 2" ... no.)

Gary

Hello Alex,

Thanks for the information on the sabot slugs. They are a very interesting design, I am surprised that the fins go so deep into the powder column portion of the casing. They must be a challenge to load into the hulls, since the gunpowder must go into the case first and then the sabots fins must find room as well.

How accurate are they for you?

Thank you for the photos, and for opening up one of your shells as well.

Hello, Rotor
I tested the sabot for accuracy last autumn. Not specially the sabot, I just used it for comparison with my friend's selfmade Diabolos.
We used russian boltoperated shotgun mc-20-01 with 2.5-7.5 BSA scope, choke 0.02" bored.
The results at a distance 110 yards from a bench was as follows:

Diabolo 432gr , 970 fps (average), 3 shots - group 6.5"
sauvestre 386gr, 1298fps (av) 2 shots - group 3.8"

Our objective was to get an apropriate accuracy with diabolos. The previous testes was less successfull by reason of supersonic
muzzle velocity. It was difficulty to get 12" group at 60 yards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 07:26PM by alex.

Gary,
I'm sure that this one is not original sauvestre because I bought it 2.4 USD per shot last summer.
Finally, testes shown much better accuracy than all of brenneces and diabolos , especially at supersonic
velocities. It's interesting to try it with air gun in different weights. original weighs 386 grains but it's easy
to reduce the weight in order to get more flat trajectory.
Alex

...sooooo how does one fill to 5700 psi. Just wondering. Never heard that before. Please educate me (no sarcasm...i really don't know)

See, that's when the sports starts to become NOT FUN anymore. It simply sucks right now to fill my gun to 3500-3600 psi every time i shoot it. And that's only good for about 2-3 shots. So to fill to even higher fill pressures i would have to buy a gas compressor to take into the field with me and use it to refill my guns and or CF tank every time. Even my CF tank is drained pretty quick when it fills the gun to 35-3600 psi after only 2 shots.

I know some of the tubes are rated for higher pressures like 4-4500 or more psi but i personally don't want to have to fill my gun to that much pressure just to get it to make power (kinda cheating in my silly lil mind). I mean, if you fill your gun to that much pressure, you have to buy EVEN MORE equipment now to fill your gun. Then, the sport/hobby becomes more difficult for the average joe to start in.

And now the noise becomes that of a powder burner and at that point, you might as well be shooting a powder burner.

Hi Cedric.

Hey - good to hear from you. The following isn't intended to imply that you don't know these things. Your post was a good point of entry ...

The issue I keep preaching on, is that a PCP Rifle is a "complete system". It's not just a pc. of seamless tubing. It's the threads in the tubing wall, or it's the tensile of the steel in the grub screws. It's the number of threads, the depth of threads, the math that proves the concept. It's the design of the bolt lock, it's the system which fastens the upper receiver to the lower power plant of the rifle. It ALL must be up to design spec. for a target operating pressure.

What I keep reading is folks that seem to feel that they can just put in more psi, and tighten the main spring ... and "Wholaaah!!!!" ... Instant quality engineering. Folks used to take those antique aircanes (from the 1850's, etc.) and run them on Carbon Dioxide. Well, they will "HOLD" it. Seemed the thought was that all ya needed was some adapter to hook to the CO2 tank. The canes themselves were 150 years old. The reservoirs were made of ancient sheet iron (full of impurities). The reservoirs were hammered around a mandel ... the seam lapped, rivited, and brazed to make it air tight. They were hand pumped to about 500 psi. Maybe 700 psi with a great pump. Then, 150-160 years later, someone comes along and fills the thing to about twice the operating pressure it was designed for. With I had a smilie with his fingers in his ears and a grimmace on his little soon to be rearranged face.

We could start talking horror stories, and I've heard more than a few. The reservoir "steel tube" might be fine to say 15,000 psi before it yields. However; how were the end caps designed, fabricated, and secured? Is the upper housing just stuck on with a couple of light screws? Does the bolt lock up use something that will just barely hold? Is it made from common mild steel components? On and on. A man designs a PCP for 250 foot pounds, and then someone jacks it up to 500 fpe. Who's teeth will be on the shooting bench when it's not completely retrofitted from the ground up (as in rebuilding and redesigning a gun for 500 fpe?)

The restraint has to be in our own common sence limits. You asked where people are getting those kinds of pressures. From welding gas suppliers. Huge Nitrogen tanks are filled to 6,000 psi. Those tanks weigh about 300 pounds. Because, that's what has been decided is required to safely transport the materials. Now, by comparison ... tanks made to contain Oxygen to only about 2,000 psi are far lighter. What's being done with many of these "hot rodded" PCP rifles is similar to taking a Oxygen welding tank, and filling it with 6,000 psi of Nitrogen. Would it blow up? Probably not. However; you'd be using up most of the redundant safety margin that had been designed into the tank. Now, when you dropped the tank during unloading it ... watch out. Or - don't bother ... they'll just hose you off the walls.

Doing these stunts for bragging rights is different than designing a gun from the ground up, to run on 6,000 psi. Could I do that? You bet. However; we've been hammered since we were an egg, that a rifle should only weigh 7 pounds ... and that's with our favorite 3 pound scope on it already! haha. And, besides, it's harder to get a 50 pound rifle under the bed ...

Just my old fuddy duddy speech again.

Gary

Gary and Tofaz,

My assumption was that he's running a 6,000# nitrogen tank, but I don't know. I don't have any desire to run anything that high so I really don't care. That booster pumps that some guys are running can go to 5,000#s, so maybe some of them go higher. If you click on the link above about Jerod's gun he mentions booster pumps.

I think both Gary and Cedric hit the nail on the head for most of us. But there are just some people who want to push the limits (you know, the American guy thing, bigger, badder, faster). As for taking a gun designed for 3,500# and putting more into it, That's not the impression I get about this gun. In the link above Jerod mentions specific designing of the gun and the fact that Jack Haley wasn't really that keen on it but that "money talks". Jack has done at least one other gun similar to this one that operates on "5000+ fill" that is mentioned later in the thread that is linked.

Being a red blooded American man I'm torn on this sort of thing. More power is always good right? yes and no. If money were no issue then sure, it'd be a ton of fun to push the envelope. But for now I'm with Cedric, I want to make it easy and inexpensive (sort of) to go out and shoot.

There's also something to be said for Darwin's theory of evolution. Not that I wish that on anyone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 05:04AM by Griffin.

A few clarifications for readers:

I don't claim to be the last word on anything. Whatever excites you, in the field of airguns, I hope you can do it safely. I'm not on a Crusade.

I'm not "Dissing" anyone's work. Not claiming anyone makes poor guns. My strong feelings are against "home shop hotrod" modifications. In my opinion, that undermines the engineering the origonal builder put into the project. I've explained that, at length. I doubt most "hot rodders" are a Chip Foose.

I don't personally just keep pushing the envelope, because that's not what I'm all about. If that's your gig ... and you've based your business on pure Adrenalin; then good luck keeping your readers pumped. That's because when 3,500 psi became boring, you had to go to 4,000 psi to stand out. Then, in a few months ... your readers were used to that. You had to go to 4,500 psi. Yeah!!!!! Everybody was excited again. For a brief period. Then ... 5,000 ... 6,000 ... where are you gonna go now? You've already jumped sixteen school buses ... guess you can add explosions and flames.

Whatever you do, I hope you will be safe. I hope the people who do it with you, will be safe too. You'll influence many different layers of owners and shooters.

I'd always hoped that our sport/hobby would mature into a larger field. I'd hoped my tournaments would catch on. Hoped my Festivals with vendors would catch on. Hoped there would be more opportunities with owner sponsored events. I've been into the accuracy, at a tremendous previously unheard of power range, all wrapped in an artistic, safe, and reliable package.

Enjoy.
Gary

Well, I for one am skeptical. I read huge claims with no evidence all the time and often in pretty odd posts. I've read where guys have mastered all kinds of technology and can shoot to extraordinary power levels and have all the details but they can't punctuate a sentence (in their native language) or operate a camera and post a picture. Often these same folks (many of you have been to the same (other) sites so you'll recognize the same trends) have plenty of time to argue every bit of arcane detail and ballistic theory but despite 10,000 posts relaying expertise on every imaginable area of airgun interest, they just never have that last moment to take a picture or video to show their 5700psi masterpiece in action. If they had had the time, we would all have been dazzled by the 300 yard 1" groups of 5 from a single fill but they were just to busy... I've seen these same people claim they would immediately buy a particular type gun if only one were available and a week later when a gun matching the criteria exactly becomes available, well, there's always another excuse... I can't believe I'm the only one with an operating baloney detector!

Please. Engineering an airgun to operate safely at those pressures is more than stuffing in a valve spring from a 454 and filling to as high as your compressor will go before blowing the safety. There's more than enough time to document the process even if only bits of the results are revealed. I'll note here that Gary does not reveal his trade secrets or innovations but despite making all these guns and doing the artwork his customers value (me included) he still has time to not only test the guns but also to document the results in photographs and video and narrative. He has that time not because he isn't busy but because his results are not imaginary. Search all the Barnes pages and you'll find lots of documented tests where the result was not what was desired and a re-design or more tuning, tweaking, or even a restart was required.

Amazingly, the spectacular yet undocumented stories I read on the web are almost always first shot success based on the author's brilliant first attempt at design! Never has a gun with the reservoir end cap threads that see pressure blown a seal, never has a gun with thin wall tubing distorted under an over-fill, never has a barrel not been accurate... Nope, the invisible super guns were all charmed from the outset and sometime soon the master will find time to take a picture!

Sorry for the intense sarcasm but I think we're treating the reported super guns as facts when we really don't know anything about them. This site is one of polite discussion but that does not mean we need to suspend disbelief or should refrain from asking for some supporting information to back-up claims of extraordinary performance.

This is an interesting thread, and everyone has good points. I love powerful bigbore but to me, an ultimate bigbore would has to be super powerful, accurate, extraordinary looking, quality, portable, and most importantly, safe. An example would be like Gary's Dragon .87. It has more than enough power to take almost any game on earth. Do we need any more power than that? Probably not! But as our human nature, we have always been pushing the envelopes, be it cars, archery, firearms etc. They get faster and faster every year. I'm sure with the experience of the Master bigbore builder like Gary, he could have build a bigbore airgun with power that would rival the centerfire if he really wanted to but he didn't for safety reasons, and beside the weight would be too heavy to be used as a hunting gun. However, I beleive there will always be someone else whom would push the envelope to the limit here or other part of the World. And another thing is records are made to be broken by someone esle. Doesn't matter how powerful one can build the bigbore, someone else will beat it in the future, and that's the fact. I do agree with Jerry, not that I doubt anyone's claim but some evidence to back up the claim would be nice for everyone.

I'm going with Jerry on this one too. I find it extremely implausible that anyone with the time and skills to engineer and fabricate a 6000psi super-airgun can't find the wherewithall to purchase a digital camera. Or the time to manage posting even one photograph, let alone one showing a pressure gauge, or construction details, or progress shots, or their machine shop, or...even a target, for that matter.

Yes, I know that some of the details might be closely guarded "trade secrets", but when you look at how much Gary has on the web, you can see that it's certainly possible to give out a lot of information about your projects without "giving away the shop". For example, you'll notice that not once has the legendary "valve thingey" shown up on the web, despite being an obvious and essential part of every gun Gary has ever made. Nor, for that matter should it ever, since that's the kind of information that both keeps Gary in business and home-shop yahoos from ginning up dangerous toys. It's like he's said several times, if someone knows enough about machining to actually make one of these themselves, they'll figure it out.

Of course, it's remotely possible that every single high-speed-low-drag internet airgun forum commando and engineer extrordinaire just MIGHT be rendered technologically helpless in the face of a $100 Walmart digicam, but for some reason I don't think that's the case.

I feel it only fair to warn the gentle readers that there just may be a bit of exaggerating going on. And on the internet too...imagine that...shocking!

To steal a headline from the Onion, "Error Discovered on the Internet!"

As a point of clarity: I wasn't trying to bash anyone here but I did want to caution against "irrational exuberance" about some posts found at certain sites. After several years now in this hobby, I've found that an extraordinary amount of the net experts have based their advice on information they have heard or deduced from reading about related topics. Stuff like the "TKO" that has been discredited by study after study lives on forever and any number of unsubstantiated theories and safety items roll around on an apparent endless treadmill of BS that provides nothing of value other than the opportunity to post the facts again...just to repeat later....

I've read the stylings of a big bore expert who's only owned one big bore in his life and has one kill to his credit go on and on about ballistics and terminal performance. I've read the nearly unintelligible ramblings of someone who has supposedly had the world's most powerful and accurate .45 built but neither he or the builder care to demonstrate the incredible breakthrough.... I've read about the project to bust the speed record by far and show the world the fastest PCP only to never see a result of any kind... I've read all about air shotguns and what it takes to make them great and effective but never seen a result better than the ones I photographed and video'd (and posted here). I've read all manner of mythical results and advice based on... nothing! Just hopes and dreams and repeats of other ramblings...

My advice? If, you read about a gun that can't be photographed or chronied in the presence of another living being, it just might be a modern fable. If you read about what makes a slug good or bad, consider the evidence (if there is any). If you read another post about what "someone" ought to build or design, consider if it's been done. If you read about how "easy" it would be for someone to do something, consider how easy it is to assign someone else work and how things get easier if you don't have to do it! If the "expert" you're relying on goes silent or stupid when questioned, he might not be the "expert" he made himself out to be! Amazing how some internet commandos suddenly get too busy to post when confronted with rational questions!

I remember posting a 3 shot group that was really good and instead of being congratulated, most of my post was ignored and a subsequent discussion broke out about 3 or 5 or 10 shot groups. I waited a bit and then posted a picture of 30 out of 31 shots falling into the same hole and asked if I had to shoot a 30 shot group every time I shot or if I had already shown the accuracy of the gun (I also sent the picture to a "famous" airgun writer and asked the same question, no reply). Crickets. Come on experts and amateur statisticians! You just had heartfelt opinions and enormous stores of facts and mathematical analysis on your side a minute ago. Where's the data reduction and analysis now? Crickets. The fact is, a large chunk of what you read on airgun sites is pure BS and imaginary knowledge. It's amazing how many folks on the internet couldn't shoot a turd in the bowl but can tell you how to take a deer at 150 yards with some gun and pellet they "know" about!

Not that this bothers me...

Jerry, my advice is to relax and treat everything like entertainment and amusement, after all, the forum is supposed to be entertaiment and fun, then everything will be ok. Sometimes we have to give the benefits of a doubt, especially guy like Danny, he seems to be a nice guy and seems to know what he was talking about. What if his claim of 1200 fpe 12guage gun was the truth? I know you didn't direct at him but to ask for suppporting evidence for any claims would have put him on the spot.

One thing I dislike about the internet forums is I feel like I have to walking around the land mines when I post, someone would always get offended when I talk good about someone else's gun, doesn't matter who the builder is(not that I care). And the forums are supposed to be entertainment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2010 03:16AM by peter-n.

Hehe, Jerry, you should try not to be so cynical...
But I think I know who you mean here:
"I've read the stylings of a big bore expert who's only owned one big bore in his life and has one kill to his credit go on and on about ballistics and terminal performance."
Too much reading (and broadcasting), and too little shooting, in that particular case, I think..... Does the word "boolits" spring to mind?
I also remember a defining moment (for me anyway) on another forum when you dared to offer a certain Raptor slug to the general airgunning public (can't for the life of me remember who designed that slug). A lengthy exchange ensued from a forum frequenter who had no big bore airguns , nor ever had any as far as I know, yet was capable of attempting to rubbish the Raptor endlessly. I bought some Raptors on the strength of that thread and met some great people as a result, here of course....
In light of all that we shouldn't be too quick to pounce on those who have done their own thing and posted some aspects, but not yet all, of their results..the proof will be in the pudding in the end.
Cheers
Neil

Hi Neil:

You should thank that individual re: the Raptor incident . . . his posts on that and several other occasions motivated me personally to build this forum (no kidding). That "other place" became so poisoned for us that we (Barnes owners / shooters) decided to start our own, and I think it's been great. I wish we had done it years before instead of dealing with all of that nonsense.

Jerry is right: pics, especially of groups, are lasting proof. Gary has documented his stuff online for more than a decade at a level of detail no one else has approached. He was essentially blogging (through the Daily Briefing pages) before there were any blogs. I'm sure other makers' guns can, and do, shoot great groups too -- I just wish we saw them more often.

-- Jim

Thank you GB for explaining that all to me. I like the way you simply put it as: The gun is a complete system. From airtube to barrel to breech to bolt etc etc etc.

Sorry it took me a while to get back to this post but, I was out of town celebrating my 40th B-DAY.

I'm definitely all for evolution. I'm definitely all for what ever YOU want from your gun. I just hope its all done safely. Guess i'm easily satisfied with my 450 fpe gun and i have to realize that some people want more and they should be able to have it. Nothing wrong with that. Heck, i mod all my guns.

I too USED to get all TIZZIED when i read of unbelievable stats with no proof or evidence besides TYPED WORDS. My most famous poster (if you guys actually know who i'm talking of and have been hunting with him, PLEASE tell me the truth) who i won't mention, currently still makes post about killing some 300+ pest species (ground squirrels, pest birds, crows, chipmunks) each and every time he goes out. And the kicker is........he uses a 6-8 ft lb SPRINGER in .177 caliber. The other kicker is.......he never shows pics (refuses to take the time to take a photo cause it would mess with his killing time) of his kills but gives u exact details of the events. I asked him once to please provide proof of his exploits and i got my butt reamed (in their minds) for asking him for proof and just because i never killed that many things in one eight hour day does not mean that it wasn't done. They asked me, "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, to question this guy". I said, "I'm the guy that provides pics and videos of INCREDIBLE things that i do". They told me, "you live in old Southern California and its all shot out so you would not know of such numbers. But not Northern California were the animals are aplenty". So i replied to them by asking the guy if he would be so kind as to invite me up north with him on a hunt and i will leave all digital photo equipment at home and bring only my eyes, brain and airguns. Needless to say, i was never invited up with him as he hunts alone on private property. By the way, on one of his post i did the math on over 400+ kills in 8 hours and it yielded something like 1 kill every 4 minutes. I don't know about you guys but, i know i personally could not sit and kill over 400 animals straight with no break for 8 hours. I would simply be tired of killing things.......period. And he posted like every 2 weeks with the same numbers.....300+ kills. Now again, i was not with this guy. So it might have been done. But he simply refused to provide any digital proof.

So as of late, i simply don't respond to silly or hyped post. I simply read and move on. Cause as someone stated, the truth will eventually come out. And, being one who is sitting on the sidelines while reading someones post, it's hard to not question things. When you post on the net you become very susceptible to critism

Peter,
I'm OK, really! I understand that forums are entertainment and just entertainment for some but they are also information sources for others. So when you go to find an answer, do you believe the guy who also has his gun shooting a zillion FPE off a 5700psi fill into tiny groups at 300 yards or the guy who has pictures and videos of actual events? I don't think every every forum has to be a collection of tall tales.

If you went to a car forum and somebody said he changed the muffler and put high test gas in his new minivan and then claimed it ran 12 second quarter miles, and nobody challenged that; would you think you found a good source of automotive knowledge? I don't think it would be unfair or rude to ask that guy to show a video of his amazing run down the strip!

Neil,
You caught me, keen eye for the obvious there! I think you're correct, more reading and re-broadcasting than experience in that corner. I may be more than normaly annoyed in that case as the fellow once agreed to test a number of slugs for me and never provided any feedback at all. I'm sure he enjoyed the shooting and moved on to finding another unwitting donor...

I am cynical, I admit it. I'm sure all the proof or pudding will either come out or eventually the passage of time will lay waste to some of the grander stories. I'm bothered that some of the unsubstantiated stories will pass into lore and be repeated and taken for fact in the meantime. Between the mythical guns and apparent zombie squirrels marching to their deaths as fast as the master hunter can reload...I'd rather read the Times for fiction! Of course, I'd really rather see the great guns posted here with targets and chrony results and video and splats etc....

I find that I have become incredibly cynical. But every once in awhile, someone comes along and surprises me. In a world of background noise, tall tales / hyper marketing, and "image is everything" attitude, my expectations are literally below the floor. Still, sometimes I will come across a person or a business commtted to doing things the "right way." Doesn't happen often -- most people are too caught up in trying to make a quick buck or some other temporary achievement -- but there are still folks who value excellence. They're just really, really hard to find.

-- Jim