Here's the question:

"What do you hope to see, in the future, from Barnes Pneumatic?

Now ... other than the obvious ... "My gun finished" ... let's see what you feel a healthy direction might be. As I've noted before; the nature of curiosity is always that of "Escalation". More power, longer range, more accuracy, more artwork. The natural result of such ... is "More work, bigger guns, closer tolerances, greater detail, slower production, and ... go figure ... higher prices".

Clearly, most readers just check in here, on their way to ten other sites, for entertainment. So; I'm not so much interested in stunts you'd like to see me perform. I'm interested in what you'd see as a genuine asset to the Barnes Pneumatic catalog.



Gary

gary , just do what you like , i like what you do , it would be like asking an artist to change the shapes and the colours of a painting .
but i do like stainless and wallnut.
i know thats not a direction answer , but , its an answer.

Oh man . . . you're really asking for it here.

Full-auto big bore. Bench format. Also usable as standard single-shot rifle, of course. Even if it's a one-off. I know you can do it, too; you've built full-auto air canes before.

Imagine what the hi-speed video of a line of .58 roundballs would look like impacting the target . . .



-- Jim

Oh ... .... goody. I was afraid someone might suggest something wildly .... impractical.

Then, when it's done ... I'll take it over to the Game Commission and ask if I can hunt deer with it! ..... In your back yard ...

Gary

i tried to get a copy of the aircane review ,,, i think im just going to have to try harder now ,,,
and turn one up

I have to admit, since finding "the site" probably 8 years ago, I have been pretty content just to see how things have developed over time, with the myriad of new things you've come up with.

having said that, and while "bigger boom" is always cool, I think lighter guns that can be shot offhand are just as cool in their own way as the big bench rest cannons

I have some early ideas...

How about a .32 tuned for 3-5 shots at say 150-200 FPE with Bishops? It could be a single shot slide breech for really light weight and simplicity or a magazine fed bolt action for the highline version. I was thinking of a style something like an M1 with a long stock, mahogony for light weight or walnut for the guy who has to have walnut.

I was thinking the action and airtube could be deeply inletted in the stock and that might appeal to the guy that wants his airgun to look more like a PB.

The magazine idea is inevitably hugely time consuming to design and perfect and limits the gun to a particular slug. The idea springs from the M1 style thought. I was thinking a 5 shot spring feed magazine under the barrel would be pretty neat for a medium power hunting gun. Naturally the problem of feeding a slug without damage and reliably would require very close tolerances and probably couldn't perform in the hands of someone trying to set a speed record...

The slide breech model doesn't sound all that extravagent though!

Interesting. Thanks.

Yes - the reality of soft lead slugs ruins quite a lot of magazine possibilities. "Fire thru" designs like a harmonica magazine or wheel gun have their issues with leakage. A gun that uses the wheel or slide to place a slug in front of the bolt has issues with timing and preventing the slug to be sheared with that irresistable desire to slam the bolt home quickly. Interesting to think about.

Main issue is that soft lead slugs (especially maxiball designs) can't be in contact with, and slide across each other.

Gary

Gary,

I've always been interested in a magazine fed airgun too. You make some good arguments againt some of the current offerings and I agree it needs to be done well but it's always a hit.

Probably take a real giant to pull it off well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2010 05:31AM by Bigbore.

I'm with Jerry on some of his suggestions.You might recall me describeing the first air rifle that I designed and built. It ended up as a .30 cal,had a six shot revolving mag and was capable of 16-18 shots at about 100 fpe off a fill.I found it more than capeable of taking goats cleanly out to 70-80 yrds.The cylinder originally indexed when the bolt was pulled back which also cocked the hammer,but I did away with the auto indexing in favour of manualy indexing the cylinder for each shot.There was a good strong detent so you knew when the slug was aligned with the bore/bolt.I know it isn't a proper repeater but a lot quicker than finding another slug, placing and loading then cocking.Goats are an introdused pest here and we can get on to mobs of two douzen or more at times, my partner and I can clean up quite a few in one session.That rifle had some design flaws being mark one so has since been stripped down. I have another design to take its place which will have a loaded indocator on the back of the bolt as well as other features,should be lots of fun to build and shoot.Danny.

Gary,

You are the one with the great imagination (as evidenced by your work), so I'm afraid we don't have much of a chance to offer anything you haven't already thought of. With that said, I like the idea of a magazine fed rifle. I have always enjoyed my AirArms S410 .22 for squirrel and varmit hunting. It's nice not to have to look away before the second shot, if needed. 2-3 shots in a large bore would be plenty. 50 cal round ball is an excellent projectile for deer.

The designs you incorporate into your pieces are awesome. I couldn't begin to suggest how to modify those. With what I've seen and felt of your creations, I would most likely accept any alternative you offered to my original orders because I know they will shoot and hunt well. How can I tell the Master how to better develop his craft?

Scott

Thank you Scott,

I appreciate your comments.

And, you are correct ... round ball can do great work. Round ball also has the ability to load extremely fast. There's no orientation required. They drop in. I've made a number of mechanisms that are extremely quick to cycle. That really makes the issue of magazines questionable. It is always a big crowd pleaser ... like a chain gun mini cannon. haha. They like those too.

What I've been thinking of lately, have been simplier designs. Here's the logic. I've incorporated so many things into my guns over the last 14 years. Each one adds smoothness, refinement, sometimes accuracy, perhaps durability. Each one is gratefully absorbed. But ... each one takes time - lots of it. Each one takes precise concentration to machine and heat treat the parts.

Here's the thing. When you go back to the earliest web pages I published ... you see targets displaying amazing accuracy. Therefore; many things that are really nice refinements, are not strictly required. Because they add so much time to the build, they drive the cost of the build.

The fact that I've learned so much over 14 years, means that I do "simple" better than I did before. I do "simple" smarter than I once did. I design "simple" more cleanly now. It's been on my mind. There's always more to do to refine. That's why a Porsche costs more. Yet ... the task will decide what you need. If you are going to drive 55 mph to town for some stuff from Walmart ... you might not need the Porsche for that task. That's the sort off issue I hear all of the time regarding using the guns, hunting, etc. "I'm afraid to use it!!" "I might scratch it". "It might start to rain!". That means there are guns for the "man cave", and guns for "hunting". That doesn't mean you have should need to change brands for hunting. Perhaps just change the level of demand for "features" on the hunting model.

I do spend alot of time helping people sort out their interests. I'm contacted, all of the time, regarding when I might reopen the ledger. They have questions for that unknown future possibility. Mostly, it's natural for people to drive their own expectations out of their own price bracket.

Just food for thought.

Thanks for your input Scott.
Gary

Just wanted to add to the above. (during this break for a handful of almonds ...)

I made it sound like the above was all customer oriented, and maybe there was a problem with that. No; that's not right. I realize the products have to be available - and that's always been up to me. There are several branches to the tree. But; I have always found that people avoided the simplier models that I offered over the years. That's a trend I've noted for the 36 years I've been in business. Some people feel that if they can't have your top model, then they don't want anything from you. They'd rather find a young guy starting up, and buy the best he has to offer. That way ... they are still buying "the best". Honest. I'm not pulling your leg. Of course, a system like the ledger also made it possible, and economical, for people to buy the higher priced work.

What's missed though, is the idea I mentioned this morning in the above comment. I do "simple" far more elegantly because of my years of experience. I do "complex" quite well, due to my years of experience ... but elegant simplicity has it's own special value. Hope that makes sence. Perhaps these thoughts have been on my mind, after the complex project of the bullpup. You know these artists!

Gary

Small caliber target rifle with magazine underneath or tube fed like marlin 22 rifle, the more round,s the better.

Double barrel big bore with the reservior in the middle under the two barrels. I'd like to see two options of this gun, a muzzleloader for the guys that can legally hunt in some states with muzzle loading airguns. The other option with a traditiional box lock and side plates for engraving.. Fill nipple hidden until you break the action down. These would look like classic big game double rifles, or drillings. Basic model up to a full blown ornate piece of shooting art.

Hello Gary,

You know that you are your own worst enemy when it comes to "ordering simple". Those grids with all the options, and the plethora of models that you've come up with over the years, and the beautiful details and ornamentation. It's just too much for the typical "gun guy" to pass up. Given the long lead time and the very good chance that the "average" Barnes customer is probably only going to order one rifle, it almost insures that your order book is going to be filled with powerful, ornate, and complex models instead of their Plain Jane cousins in the lower power ranges.

If you offered a lineup of plain-vanilla .32s and .25s at half the cost and half the wait time of the bigger, fancier models, you'd undoubtedly sell a whole bunch of them. The simpler and less powerful models are really better suited for regular field use, and generally lighter and easier to shoot well. They're really what most people would end up shooting most of the time if they had "one of everything" in the gun safe.

That said, however, the difference in cost and especially wait-time between a fully-optioned, gorgeously decorated monster-slayer and a "bone stock" Victory .32 isn't half. In practical terms, it's about the same. That's especially true for ledger customers who see the price difference between the two as a few dollars more per month rather than the ultimate sticker price difference (which is actually substantial). "If you're going to wait "X" number of years for a Barnes, might as well be waiting for the top of the line" has effectively become your customers motto, whether we know it or not.

I know as well as anyone on the ledger how and why the backlog has developed. I can't fault you for anything that you've had to do while addressing the reality of life as it actually happens, rather than life as we want it to happen. The fact remains, however, that the multi-year wait time for a Barnes rifle has created a situation where there is essentially no incentive for your customers to "order simple". The only solution that I can see (other than the cloning machine) would be to implement a time-based "penalty system" that weighs orders by their overall complexity and rewards the simplest ones with a much shorter wait time. If you want a reasonably powerful, moderate caliber model that's "off the shelf", so to speak, you can get it pretty much now. If you want all the bells and whistles on your new exotic-metal air cannon you'll have to get in the back of the line, I'll work on it when I can.

I'm not sure if it would really work in your shop or if it's even a good idea for your business model, but it's the only way I can see to get the average complexity of your orders down. It would effectively lead to a two-tier system, with a very limited catalog of models and options available for the "get it now" crowd. Time may not actually be money, but it's got a value of its own that cannot be understated. Your current system treats all orders on the backlog the same, and it shows in what's on your orderbook.

And now that I've derailed this thread in it's entirety, back to the original question.

I'd like to see a moderately powered (100fpe+/- with round ball) mid-bore repeater that takes the Hornady buckshot and shoots it great right out of the bag. It'd have to be light enough to carry and shoot standing, hold enough air and balls for a dozen or so shots, and inexpensive and tough enough to take into the field regularly. Most importantly, it'd have to be available in months instead of years. I'm sure that you could get to the point where this could be a mainstay of the lineup, but it's gonna be a bit of a bumpy road between here and there.

Great post rotor. I'm dying to respond, but will give Gary first crack at it.

-- Jim

Hello Sean,

Excellent post. Thanks for the time and thought you put into it. I appreciate it. You have many valid points there. I will respond. Can't right now though.

Just quickly: Most everything is time related. You nailed that. And it nailed me. My health issues just cut the legs out from under me. After life "softened me up" first with a few years of life crap dumped thick. So; everything you see on these pages, has been made under nearly the worst circumstances which could exist, and yet still allow me to crawl forward. It sucks.

I know how much work I could have put out without all of the above. But; that was not to be. Would have been more merciful if the crap dumped on me had been a grand piano , because; as it is, people can't really "see" the conditions I've overcome to work. And, it's not visible in the written web post. What they do "see" is the finished pictures of my work. They can't do that work themselves. Therefore; the unshakable conclusion is that I must be in one heck of a lot better state then they are. And so; the time issue becomes yet another dragon to fight, while I shovel crap, and work as best the chronic health stuff will allow. That sucks too.

So; changing the conditions, and retrofitting the catalog, is a tall order. You are correct. Any order that started out simple, morphed into a full blown monument during the wait. The only thing that could make simpler models work, would be a cash and carry policy.

Gary

"Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you."

Carl Sandburg

This quote just about sums up the story of my life, and I imagine that it's a rare man indeed to whom this does not strictly apply.

Hi Sean,

Good quote. Thanks. Very true.

And, to nobody in particular ...

The biggest time waste I have is repeating myself. Repeating - one to one - what people have not read in posts I've made countless times. Either because they just haven't found the material, haven taken the time to even look for it, or have decided that I own them a personal audience. It usually takes the form of ... " ... bring me up to speed on the last six months or a year since we last spoke". I don't know about you, but someone would have to have a pretty boring life if they could quickly, and convincingly describe the last year of their life." "Well, I get up - have OJ and toast, clock in at 8am, leave at 4pm, mow the grass - that's about it." Sorry ... my life isn't like that. I get up before light, in order to take narcotic pain pills and Ibuprofen, so that when I awake again two hours later, I can actually brush my teeth and get dressed. Then I take seven more pills once I'm dressed. Then, over the course of the day, I'll take eleven more pills of various types of pain pill, muscle relaxers, nerve conductivity pills, anti-inflamatory pills, and others. And then, before bed about midnight, I'll take eleven more pills. And that's just the pill story. A full year of all categories takes a bit longer. And ... even the pill story raises all sorts of objections from people. "30+ pills a day!!!! Why THAT's ABSURD ... you need to get off those pills and chew rabbit turds!!! That's right ... those doctors don't know squat!! Rabbit turds are the hidden secret big Pharma doesn't want you to know about!!!" Everybody has the cure - just in their left pocket. If only I'd been bright enough to realize it.

One of the reasons this is a fresh nerve, is because I just went thru all of this again, with someone. At 10:45 Saturday evening, I was satisfying the curiosity of someone who felt they had a need to know, and I had a personal responsibility to convince them I wasn't faking it. And, everybody that comes along, feels that I have a personal responsibility to start from square one, answer all of their arguments and accusations, and then convince them personally. It gets pretty old. And, I get pretty sick of the efforts to make me feel guilty, because my health stabbed me in the back. If I'd have gotten in this exact condition from trying to ride a bicycle down the rock face of some mountain to be on some stupid daredevil video ... then I could understand the bitter hatred I get. If I'd have gotten in this exact position because some airline crashed into my shop, then we'd have sued the bastards and I'd pay off everybody and go hurt in private. However; I got into this exact position from my gene cesspool, and from working hard since I was a child. I'm one of those unfortunate millions who have worked hard, paid their bills, and darn it ... just don't have anyone to sue. Just don't fit into any charmed group that's getting a check sent to them from the government. So; I have to keep working and keep paying those bills, which keep going straight thru the roof.

I do - yes - I get tired of going over it all ... over and over and over again. So; please send a link to this post to everybody on your e-mail list. haha.

I don't know what I'll have to change to alter this pattern. I've always been visible. Always promptly answered any correspondence. Always been a presence on my website, forums which wanted to allow free exchange, and on my own forum. However; this endless beating and rehearsing of the facts I've disclosed a hundred times, is extremely wearing. It uses up energy that should go into the shop.

Anybody can look at the pics of the work I've produced, and see that ... like it or not ... that guy has endless ideas and does highly detailed work. Well, that grinds the heck out of some people. So; they figure tossing rocks at me is a good way to make their work look better. It's the old gunslinger story. Find an old gunslinger, shoot him in the back while he's putting a saddle on his horse, and you're a big man. That gets old too. It all grinds down the energy you have to work with. So far; I've kept to the model I've always used. The only thing that counteracts some of this, is having some friends to conduct the day with seperate from all of this endless attack and demand for daily proof that I'm not a faker.

Well, I guess all of that was on the tip of my tongue. No wonder the coffee tasted so bad this morning.

I'll get over it ... some of it. And try to be civil the next time.

Thanks for listening.
Gary

I'll say this: if "nobody in particular" spent more time shooting and less time asking about a gun that's not even theirs, rather than "calling people out" on the intertubes, they would have saved everyone a lot of grief and many hours of wasted effort and emotion. It's not like your health and the ledger is a new situation; it's been that way, and public knowledge, for years. Do people really think that squeezing you will make you do better, faster work?

One other observation: *all* shooting and groups are celebrated here, regardless of manufacturer of the gun. I've *never* seen any maker bashed on this forum, nor will they ever be while I'm a mod. There are plenty of other places to post that stuff, but this ain't one of them -- in fact, that's why this forum was started in the first place. If someone shoots a great group with an airgun, we all want to see it, no matter what it was shot with!



-- Jim

How about a Girandoni clone shooting off the shell round ball? Other than that, I have always liked the look of a big bore muzzle loader
like the Bison.
K

Thanks Karl,

Yeah ... in my opinion, a round ball magazine is the least fiddly. Soft lead does not want to be shuttled around. People say they want a magazine ... but they want target accuracy. Well, they don't go together with soft lead airgun slugs. The old slam the bolt back, make it ring, and slam it forward again ... just won't do. You peel off the corners, nick up the nose, and then ... when it won't shoot accurately, it will be the gun's fault.

Now - a Girandoni can work (my first professional #1 gun was just that - a Girandoni breech magazine repeater) ... but look at the facts. Those were maybe 150 foot pounds ... something like that? They fire THRU the breech block, so there is side leakage - something like a revolver. In a 150-200 fpe gun - that's not a huge issue. Now - I can make a power house version ... but then, there will still be breech leakage and you'll get a nasty blast out that metal to metal joint. That's the price for the BAng, Bang, BAng.

Believe me ... if there were the simple mechanism that would produce an accurate thing ... I'd have done it. Because, each time I've ever asked for input like this, the magazine is always the number 1,2,3,4,5,6, and 8th suggestion.



Thanks for your input Karl! Good idea in a replica format.

Gary

Actually, I think my first suggestion was for a slide breech design and the second for a highend magazine fed version. Or was that idea 7 and 8?

Anyway, I'm sorry I ever mentioned the magazine idea...

Oh ... quit yer whining. haha. I'll do the whining round here.

Just because I busted you all day Saturday about magazines, you don't have to go soft on us ... hahah.

I like 'em too. I just don't like having to explain the cost, the fact that they will definitely stick at times, and the fact that the will screw up soft lead slug shaped projectiles. Other than that ... it's pure fun. ;?)

Yeah ... the simplier "back to basics" guns are the #7 suggestion.

If I had more time, and wasn't as committed to previous work, I'd make more complex pcs. They show the skills I've worked a lifetime to master. But - I need to make both. So I try.

Gary

OK, I won't mention the design in my head for a spring driven verticl magazine that avoids pellet to pellet contact...

Good

Well since my suggestion kind of got lost in the shuffle. I'm assuming it's either so far out on limb to pay any attention to, or one is already in the making!!!!!

Hello Joe,

They were good ideas. And, yeah ... they did get lost in the shuffle. Sorry.

I've always liked the looks of double rifles and drillings as well. Perhaps some day I'll have an opportunity to make something like that.

Believe it or not, I actually had planns to do more work on your Chameleon today. I also was going to get Sean's parts out again. The day had other plans. But, over the next week, I'll make more tracks there. A guy has to be a bit nuts to do this ya know. And making stuff out of chunks of steel taks longer than it should. haha. But, I have it in my mind. Sean's too.

There were a lot of good thoughts in the thread. Yes - most things get sidetracked.

A side note, the injections I had yesterday have really helped already. Past few weeks I've felt like Tanya Harding worked my knees over with a baseball bat. Really - went up stairs in a good deal of pain. Today ... that's gone. This is really oddball condition. Those nerve bundles that are pinched go everywhere. It's great when the pain stops. And then, I have to decide which of the fifty things that are in the number one critical spot on the list to do.

Was a pretty good day. Thanks to everybody for their suggested ideas. I'll try to draw some conclusions from them.

Gary

Work at your pace Gary, I have a new born respect for what you do by the very little that I have been doing in the shop. I honestly have thought about it and don't know how you do what you do without going a little insane, and I've left out the health issues you contend with.

There's just something about days with other plans, isn't there? For example, the other day I planned to go catch some salmon, but all I got were these ugly old things instead. But you know what? I somehow managed to deal with this setback and trudge through anyhow.

Hello Sean,

That's the Spirit! No whining or anything ... good man. haha.

Man ... THOSE are some beauties. I'll bet they were good.

That smile says it all. I'm glad you are enjoying Alaska Sean.

Gary

Well, some days are easier to enjoy than others.

A day when you get a couple of keepers like these AND blue sky and sunshine all at the same time, that's what makes it worth putting up with the inconvienences of living up here. That pic is me in deckhand mode, on a friends boat. He's got a cabin cruiser with an electric pot puller, which is a major bonus since you put king crab pots quite a ways down there, and the pots are heavy too. My little 15' skiff is still equipped with the Armstrong model pot puller; namely, it makes your arms strong pulling them up by hand.

I suppose you could fit a couple of king crab pots on mine and still float, but manually pulling 350-500 feet of line up with a sixty-pound pot is a bit more character building that I'm usually game for. We get lots of dungennes crab around here, which are typically found in much shallower water, and caught in much smaller and lighter pots. The king crab are real hit-or-miss, most people don't really go for them regularly unless they have the heavier-duty gear on their boat.