As many of the regulars of the forum know, Gary is always being asked what a used Barnes air gun or knife is worth.

Gary should not provide values of used air guns or knives he’s produced. He is qualified to provide information on the item itself, such as when it was made, what it was made from, was it a ledger or off ledger item, what caliber it is, how many were made, and what he sold it for. He can even provide an estimate for repairs and determine what condition its in (if you send it to him). Of course if you ask Gary to provide research on an item, expect to pay for the service ($250 for research is fair). Colt, Smith & Wesson, and other firearm manufacturers charge for the service, so to expect Gary to do it for free is absurd. And, just as the firearm manufactures don’t provide a value on their used products, Gary can’t either.

Since this is about air guns, I will not discuss knives, but the principles used to determine value can be applied there as well.

If you want to know the value of a firearm, check the Blue Book of Gun Values. If you want to know the value of an air gun, check the Blue Book of Airguns (BBAG)(both published by Blue Book Publications, Inc.)

Unfortunately, the BBAG does not provide value ranges for Gary’s creations. However, they do provide information on air guns made by Denis Quackenbush, which we can use to base our Barnes value on.

Now before we get into the values, let put things in context.

1. Dennis has made over 2000 air guns.
2. Dennis produces the same product again and again. So for example there are over 1600 copies of his Outlaw series of air guns.
3. Dennis produces his products in production runs.
4. Gary has produces 150 – 200 air guns.
5. Most of Gary’s air guns are unique, one of a kind creations. The ones that are not unique are limited in numbers (only a few ever made of a single style).
6. Gary produces his products as individual items.
7. Both Gary and Dennis accept new orders on a ledger system which only open when prior list orders are filled.
8. Most of Gary’s creations qualify as American Folk Art; most of Dennis’s do not.

Why is understanding the value of a Quackenbush relevant to understanding the value of a Barnes? Because Gary and Dennis are the premier custom air gun manufacturers in the US today and the forces that drive the value of a Quackenbush air gun are identical to the forces that drive the value of the Barnes.

Currently, a Quackenbush in 95% new condition is worth more then its MSRP of $595. However, used Quackenbush rifles are selling for up to 100% on top of their MSRP, because people do not want to wait 6 months to a year for a new rifle.

So the current value for a Quackenbush Exile in 95% condition is $1200. Of course, if the Exile has some options, that pushes the value up even more.

Now lets look at the value of a Barnes. Gary does not produce many air guns per year and he only open up his ledger for new orders every three to five years. The last time he accepted new orders was Jan 2010. I do not expect his ledger to reopen for new orders until 2015/2016. If you get on the ledger, you can expect delivery in 2019/2020 or sometime after.

So, if we apply the two conditions that affect the value of a Quackenbush to the Barnes (the value of the item in 95% condition is worth more then MSRP and used items are double the MSRP) we can determine the general value of a Barnes rifle.

So lets look at the value of the Gray Fox shown on Gary’s website. Its base price is $4975, options (upgraded and carved stock, line engraving) are $2845.

If we apply the 1st condition the value is rounded up to $5000 (base price) if in 95% condition.

If we apply the 2nd condition the value is $10,000.

But we forgot the options. The total cost of options is about 55% of the MSRP. So we can add 55% to the MSRP and recalculate for a total of ($15,600) or add 55% of MSRP to the calculated value ($12,750). I use both to determine high and low value. If I’m selling I do not want to go below the low value, and work to get the high value. If I’m buying, the farther away from the high value the better the deal.

I’m using a percentage of MSRP as an example of how options should be calculated into the value. I derived the percentage the following way:

Upgraded stock 10% - 20%
Upgraded stock finish 5% - 15%
Carved stock 15% - 50%
Stainless Steel 15% - 25%
Upgraded metal finish 5% - 15%
Metal engraving 15% - 50%

But what if the rifle is the first of its kind or one of a kind? Shouldn’t that push the value up? I think its reasonable to say that it should. How much and how that is figured into the price is open to debate, but my opinion is that add again the MSRP to the value for unique and one of a kind items. That would take the value of the example item above to between $17,750 and $20,600.

For those people who purchased their air gun via the ledger, you got a good deal. If you purchased an off ledger prototype from Gary, you also got a good deal. If you picked up a Barnes from an estate sale or private sale for less then the original sale price, you got a great deal. It’s a shame that those parting with their Barnes are not getting what they are worth, and it may be argued they are being ripped off because of a lack of information.

I would like to see Blue Book Publications address this issue in the next release of their publication. Barnes collectors need a trusted reference to determine the value of their collection for resale and insurance purposes.

'For those people who purchased their air gun via the ledger, you got a good deal.' Sorry, but for many of us, that remains to be seen, Keith. Glad things are going so well for you.

Hello Doug,

What remains Doug, is to hold the completed rifle that you bought. I believe it's clear in Keith's text ... that he's saying that the locked in price of the project ... is a good deal (value) .... when viewed against it's completed value. When people paid a hundred dollars a month - for approx. 36 months ... and receive a rifle with a realistic value of approx. $10k ... that's not a bad return.

I'm not sure that, for Keith - how did you put it ... "Things are going so well for you?" .... Keith appraises collectible and antique firearms for estates and such. He's trying to start a discussion on his professional estimation of how you might begin to value a collectible custom airgun.

Thanks for your Input,
Gary

dlalder,

Yes, getting one through the ledger is a real good deal. You just have a long wait. I was lucky to get mine. I look at it as part of my retirement account. Some people invest in gold, some in stocks, but I like functional art. I might lose money, but it's a good investment and I can play with it.

Keith

BTW Keith ... I don't think it's a secret that you are a ledger sitter too, at present.

I have had many customers who just rolled over ledger spots on a permanent basis. And, everyone is convinced they've been bypassed. It's the primary customers who have been gracious enough to sit back, and let me work on other people's spots - far newer then theirs. Because, maybe they already got one or two. Maybe they went to one of the Festivals I produced - where hundreds of people were invited - and a few went. And - they snagged a gun there at the Festival. Maybe they attended one of the Invitational Shoots which were established to invite people who had decided to participate in Barnes Pneumatic beyond the basic vending machine function I've referred to a hundred times. Someone bothers to participate, bothers to use, document, and photograph their Barnes guns in action, attends the Festivals, joins in the forum ... you bet ... they were invited to a special get together. And a gun or two changed hands.

I'm going around once too. These are my friends. About all I do is work. What I leave will be what I've made. Once in a great, great while .... when I get sick of not having a Barnes PCP ... I cobble together one for me. I tell you. I don't sneak it. I shoot it. I show it. Eventually, somebody talks me out of it. I have to eat. So; "Air Guns Happen". Let's make a Tee Shirt.



Gary

I'd like to add a few thoughts to this thread:

Let me first set the table for my comments. Early Tuesday Morning ... Kelly and I drove to a Surgery Center in Mississippi. As you know - I keep walking - without a crutch ... because I get Epidural Injections every four months. With changing locations and thus Doctors ... it's been 7 months. I gripe a bit - but I try not to overwhelm you with misery. But - I've felt like crap for some time now - the cane has been in the car for weeks. I had to have injections. I have six very badly damaged discs in my spine. Two have been completely replaced and then fused with titanium plates and screws. OK ... I won't go into detail. I'm sure some have rolled eyes and done the "heard it all before" moan already. And ... for some reason ... other people's medical issues are real. Mine are not. Why? Because I can still produce some amazing examples of engraving and carving. Because I haven't given up and I still fight to support myself and family. I don't "read disabled" on the forum. Think about it. You read complete sentences. Most things are spelled correctly. I usually write the correct version of "Bear and Bare", or "To, Two, and Too" ... and ... the darned pocket knives are $1,200us. He's not sick!!!

We got back the following night. And found a real mess at home. The water from the horrible storms, had overwhelmed my defenses. You know - I have sand traps, underground drain tubes all over the place, and roadside ditches, even ditches thru the woods .... to carry the runoff from storm water. Well, the Woods cut off berm was overwhelmed and washed out. That let most water continue down the road to our home area. Then, the primary sand trap filled - then breached the berm - then allowed all the storm water to bypass the next sand trap, underground tubes, and the road ditches. The water poured across the front yard and onto the house terrace. It penetrated the crawl space ... and produced a sinkhole 10 foot by 15 foot by 5 feet deep. The house is on piers - probably at least a hundred of them as are many, many Florida homes. Our driveway washed out. The water picked at it until it could get under the gravel stone crust .... then fissured under the crust and eroded. From there, it would rise, breech, cave in, and just ruined the great drive down to the shops. I've spent all day throwing myself at the first of it.

So - that's where I start, tonight. I'm beat. Had a medical procedure - and came home to drive a tractor, shovel clay sand, and crawl around under my house. Why not just call someone? Well, first ... there is the insurance "deductible", and the "inspectors", then contractors. Cant afford the Pros - can't use the local "willing" talent. There are signs posted around town here that it is a FELONY to hire unlicensed contractors around here! A FELONY? So ... I also have a tractor, and a shovel. Etc.

Now ... Values.

You know the old saying that something is worth what someone is willing to pay - right? Well - for the sake of establishing values ... when you have a bunch of people holding very rare objects - which they are NOT interested in selling ... then we really don't know exactly what someone is willing to pay - do we?

Since most of my designs are made to very low production numbers ... then we don't really have "stats" on what the last "87 Dragon" sold for at auction. What we do know is this ... IF there were TWO 87 Dragon Barnes units .... they would be totally different. But - there's only one. We also know that people don't show or shoot their Barnes very much. Mostly - buyers are private, by choice.

What Keith was explaining ... is TRADITIONAL methods of establishing value on collectible items - specifically firearms (his specialty) and airguns. That doesn't mean you can go door to door, nationwide ... with his Grey Fox ... and get people breaking arms to buy it for $25k. This is a specialized market. Mostly what people do not understand is that it is YOU ... the collector/owner ... who establishes the demand and value. I spent 25 years trying to explain this to knife buyers. My knives were unique, as well. At the beginning of each show - the first 30 people coming to look, were the other knifemakers. Because; I always had something completely different from last time. Usually they were unique in the entire hall. I won many best of show awards at these large shows. And usually, if there were 12 knives on my table - they were each unique. So; whereas Maker Mr. Jones (on the other side of the banquet hall) had made the same design for 20 years ... and everybody in the room knew exactly what they looked like ... and could thus pretty much tell you what they were selling for. Mine were in private collections. That small drawer in the safe. Who knew where they were? And, I was running blind - well before the internet ... so; they were not researchable on the net. Who knew what they even looked like if they had not seen them at a show - or seen some featured in the knives books, annuals, and magazines.

People establish the demand for their own individual units - by showing them. By demonstrating. The net is a gift for establishing value. If you shoot it - they will learn it. And - some will want it. There is not a week goes by, that I'm not asked about the Hoss Pistol. And ... I have a story about that coming up soon. That pistol is about as famous for Barnes - as is a Bison. The original 45 Hoss ran about 225 foot pounds about 14 years ago when I made it, to demonstrate at the first Standing Stone Rendezvous Festival I produced. It's brother - the HAWG pistol, at about 330 foot pounds in 62 caliber ... is another that I never get done talking about. And ... the HAMR ... will raise some eyebrows too ... a bit later .....

Don't ever count me out. I've been dragged down, and tied to this cursed move for two years. It sure wasn't my dream project. And, I was just fine with my back before it went all crackers on me - along with the nerve damage which accompanied it. But, by God ... I can produce finer work today, then I've ever been able to in my last 40 years of business. This is the 41st year of the Barnes Handcrafted history. That's just the commercial run including: Barnes Cabinet Shop, Barnes Knives, and Barnes Pneumatic. In the cracks are Jewelry, Oil Paintings, Carved Glass, Wind driven toys, and more. There are many, many unique products out there; that I've made with these two hands. It's not up to me to write the coffee table book. So that's where the collectors create the story, demand, pricing. That's what Keith is putting a picture frame around.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2014 05:30AM by barnespneumatic.

Great explanation, and I went through a cup o coffee on that one. Some of us are patiently awaiting the fine functional artwork that is Gary Barnes!!!!!

Hi Don,
There are a bunch of folks waiting, and I've acknowledged that many have exhibited EPIC patience. I appreciate it very much - from everyone. THE prime point I wanted to introduce was this, again: "The oldest orders are exhibiting the most willing patience. The customers with the most orders, have quietly stepped back to allow me to work on other's orders. People believe me or not. Never changes the truth. I have multiple people with five orders, who rather then expecting prime service - just stand back. I know how old orders are. I lived thru each delay.
Now - if anybody can find pics of me golfing, or gambling, or coming out of rehab ... then post them. Otherwise - you have at least 7,500 posts on this forum telling you where I've been, and what I've been doing. The delays have been absurd. I don't try to "defend" them. They just "are" what happened.
BTW - between yesterday and today - I've moved a tandem dual dump truck load of clay sand to under my house. I first lifted all the Kubota buckets would lift up onto the house terrace - then I've "hand shoveled" it back into the sinkhole under the house. Some twice - as I had to shuttle it back.
How do I do it? 'Cause - even broken down - I am an Ox. (Capital O). And - there is nobody else to do it.

Don - you've become a good friend. Your rifle will be all you expect it to be.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2014 10:26PM by barnespneumatic.

I understand and do consider everything that has affected Kelly and yourself also. Understanding your situation with your health and your move with all of the pain and frustration had to test your patience to the limit. The rain is now hammering us and I am glad I cleaned out the rain gutter's

Cup o coffee , I drank a whole pot ! I can't even imagine the stress that Gary must be going through. A backlog of all the ledger people the big move and all the pain management issues plus running a small business with global impact! It's amazing that he still has time to run this website! . Anybody who's lucky enough to be on the ledger must've known that they were going to have to wait for a while and it must be terrible not know when your piece will be done! Considering the small number of pieces that Gary has done in the past I would think I would be lucky to even be on the ledger let alone be able to afford one especially with the inflated prices that the bluebooks generate! . I have never been the kind of person that would be even able to wait for something for that long.. that's why there are people like Dennis out there for people like me who can't wait. But I didn't go that route I drove to an auction across the country( well okay maybe halfway across the country) and bought one ! I can't imagine having to put a value or price on any of my (extremely rare) airguns but I do know what Gary's are worth !! ALOT . How much is a lot ? Only you know.....

Thanks
Kurt

Gary :
Great read. Keep doing what your doing and we'll be here to see the results in time. I look forward to the next festival.

Karl

Sitting here with my cup of Chai, wondering what kind of value would be placed on a 3 day festival? Yes, one where you get to shoot a dozen different Barnes guns at reactive targets, participate in a competition with trophies, eat endless local food specialties and chat with Gary and other collectors/bigbore shooters.

I would think the exposure of the guns and additional providance the follow up posts and pics would enhance said gun's value. Why does Gary get requests for specifics guns? Because readers see the posts of the guns here and that drives value.

Any thoughts from those who have attended a festival? Hey, gatherings have happened in the past, who knows?

Keith, all my art is functional. Some times I get the pleasure of building it too! Truth be told, the one hanging I helped my son build when he was 13.


Gary, I'm glad the sink hole has a bottom. Hope the injections help, despite the "stress test" Mother Nature gave your back.

Kent

Hello Kent,

The Festival you suggest sounds like a complete pipe dream ... common ... WHERE do you come up with this stuff. Why ... certainly all of those things could never exist in one space and time! Shoot a "variety of" Barnes Guns you say ... .... hold the phone ... we all KNOW that they don't shoot! At least ... it appears so!! And ... competition! Why .... I hope you have a trophy for everyone Mr. Sir!

hahaa. Good food - friends - interesting stuff to see and shoot .... next you'll be telling me there's an electric ATV to chauffer us and our gear around the courses! Hah!!!

Well ... something like that would be priceless. If you are going to sell toys ... you are going to have to demonstrate that it is "possible" to have fun with them.

The Kayaks are just great. Really fine work - and I know you enjoy them with your family. I do believe I've seen several times that number of handmade Kayaks in a barn like that!

Still looking for that Wright Flier Kit ...

Gary

Kent,

The kayaks look nice. I can't wait to see them in person. Maybe at the next festival??

Keith

That kayak is so beautiful, I would be afraid to put it in the water!

OH!!!! Now don't start THAT STUFF again!!!! Haha.

Yeah, my Barnes guns are supposed to be too pretty to shoot... Turns out, they are the only ones I shoot!

Hey Jerry ... Maybe I better get another jug of truck bed liner for Don . What do ya think?

When I put mine to good use, I will need a reconditioning!!!!!

What, you use it as a club? I have hundreds to thousands of rounds though my guns without need of rework. I'd recommend a machete for getting through the brush!

I understand and will have a custom camo sock for the beast!

Just pulling your leg, Don!



Gary

Many state they will shoot and use these rifle's, only to not see anything posted on this website. They are probably a safe Queen or hanging on the wall. I have shot my condor and sam yang big bore at the Wyoming Antelope firing range only to turn around and see three people watching my target. At fifty yard"s I can make 161 grain round ball almost touch, and it has been altered in power. There is a problem with it that make's me not trust it or shoot it. Accidental discharge twice, and I have not shot it since. Maybe when my Yukon GS is completed, i can see someone that can help me out with this issue......

Hi Don,

You must have a "sear engagement" issue Don. Probably the angles are just a bit off. In your custom work, did they say they'd "smooth or polish" the trigger parts? Nothing wrong with doing that "IF" you maintain the correct angles. It's very easy to mess up. And if you just don't fully understand how to get it back correct - you can create the situation you describe.

Also, some terrible triggers are predisposed to release and just use a heavy spring to keep the link engaged. People want to naturally lighten the trigger so they don't have to put their foot up on the scope to pry it loose to fire. They lighten the spring to the point where the system is barely holding. Dangerous. Only fix for that is a better design of the orig. very heavy spring. Polish all you want. Those systems still depend upon the heavy spring.

Gary

When I sent it to bgmf air rifle, they had it for about three week's and when it arrived I took it to the range. When I first shot it after the upgrade in power, I noticed that it has slight recoil. When I first bought the rifle it had no recoil at all. After several trip's to the range it developed this problem and I have not shot it after that.

A festival could happen. I'll get my party planner involved.

Jerry, I've noticed my other airguns get no airtime as well. A Falcon and a Beeman Lx2 IIRC. Now I do shoot some firearms, skeet and security practice, but my fun at the house and legged game hunting I go Barnes big air.

I do hear the same things about the kayaks, "I wouldn't put that piece of art in the water". Where's the fun in that!

Great to hear there is renewed interest in at shoot!

Kent

The Kayak Cup! ;?) Come see the world famous Kayak Boatyard. Build your own over the weekend! Build an airgun too!

Well - youll never find a more gracious host couple. Hope it suits - Sounds great. Ill leave my shovel at home for a weekend!



Gary

Well, the last festivus was awesome!

Kent, sent you a PM, Timmy is checking molds right now. He's found two and I sent him to the scale!